GM note about alterations and warranties

[hulkss]

Performance mods are mentioned in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which states:

"aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, unless the warranty clearly states the addition of aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle's warranty"

What our GM warranty says:

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT ALTERATIONS AND WARRANTIES
Installations or alterations to the original equipment vehicle (or chassis) as distributed by General Motors are not covered by the General Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The special body company, assembler, equipment installer, or upfitter is solely responsible for warranties on the body or equipment and any alterations (or any effect of the alterations) to any of the parts, components, systems, or assemblies installed by GM. General Motors is not responsible for the safety or quality of design features, materials, or workmanship of any alterations by such suppliers.

This says that the installer is responsible for any alterations and ANY EFFECT OF THE ALTERATIONS.:worried:

Good luck getting warranty coverage on your engine and transmission with the ECM and TCM modified. If they are modified any competent dealer can detect it.

I want a good tune that I can install and return to stock myself as needed to avoid the potential for a major warranty hassle. I would like to run my TBSS hard, buy an extended warranty, and not have to worry about it.:yes:

[hokie822]

Well..they still have to prove that the tune caused the problem...WITHOUT QUESTION.......That paraghraph you attached said that the installer or maker of aftermarket part is responsible for the part they installed....well no crap...GM isn't responsible for my aftermarket mudflap....,and it also says that they are responsible for anthing that would occur to my GM vehicle....also true...if my mudflap wore the paint off my fender it is very easy to prove that the mudflap casued this.
The problem lies in the tune. How is GM going to prove that the tune caused (insert problem you have). Good luck...It would be very difficult to prove it with 100% certainty.

[Dave]

You really don't want to fight a warranty claim with a manufacturer. The Moss law does say they have to prove that the aftermarket caused the OEM part to fail but in the end you will have to prove that it didn't cause it to fail without a doubt. GM covers the warranty in the condition when the vehicle was delivered. Buyer beware after you sign the paperwork and decide to modify the vehicle. GM lawyers have plenty of time and money to deal with you. Do you have time to prove your part didn't cause the failure, including taking it to another city? Can you afford the lawyer costs?

What concerns me is that GM recently has claimed the driver "abused" the car when the car is still stock but it is having the same problems. Caddilac was known to judge abuse by wear of the CTS Vs tires. Most drivers are very lucky to get 15,000 on the runflats and at 5k they look well worn.

GM can also track engine speed, the amount of times you floor it and probably other stats that you wish they didn't know.

In the end, the person that installed or paid to have the aftermarket part installed ends up trying to prove they are not guilty. Some dealers are real good with aftermarket parts, others will burn you in a heartbeat.

Even installing new wheels/tires can cause a drivetrain claim to be denied. Any HP increase can also affect the rest of the drivetrain's warranty.

Sorry for the length of this but the manfacturer usually wins.

K&N even fought the manufacturers for denied warranty claims and it turned out that the buyer was putting too much oil on the filter causing sensors in the intake to fail.

[iDontKnow]

It's a scare tactict to try and avoid responsibility. Many people don't know that act exists, so it's an easy scare for GM. But a large corporation like GM has very good lawyers. Good luck!

It's kinda like selling things with the "sold as is" tag to avoid responsibility... there's a thing called fraud by silence, although trying to prove it, that's a different story. :)

[hulkss]

I think a well done software tune is a great product that takes advantage of the technology available to us today. I just want to be able to install it and remove it without a trace. :yes:

[John Skiba]

You pay to play...

... once a powertrain mod goes on (yes, even a tune), I don't look to GM to cover it under warranty. Why should I? It didn't break within it's delivered design state, it broke because I modified it somehow and may have pushed that part beyond it's design limit.

Yes, I know there are guys that install nitrous, etc and then go in for powertrain warranty. All I have to say is thanks for adding to the cost for the rest of us because you want to have your cake and eat it to! :mad:

Don't play if you can't pay...

:m2:

[ghoster]

You pay to play...

... once a powertrain mod goes on (yes, even a tune), I don't look to GM to cover it under warranty. Why should I? It didn't break within it's delivered design state, it broke because I modified it somehow and may have pushed that part beyond it's design limit.

Yes, I know there are guys that install nitrous, etc and then go in for powertrain warranty. All I have to say is thanks for adding to the cost for the rest of us because you want to have your cake and eat it to! :mad:

Don't play if you can't pay...

:m2:

:iagree:

[hulkss]

Ahh the beauty of hot rodding with control software.....install the upgrade today, remove or change it tomorrow at the touch of a button. If I only had a programmer to install, remove, and tweak a well developed ECM+TCM tune.

[GTPprix]

Ah the beauty of the CVN an CAL ID's matching stock. I'll say it again.. at the dealership level there is no tool that can detect our tune lol Tech 2 will show the same data as stock and there is no published list of total timing or anything for an ECM LOL

[Bulldog]

Ah the beauty of the CVN an CAL ID's matching stock. I'll say it again.. at the dealership level there is no tool that can detect our tune lol Tech 2 will show the same data as stock and there is no published list of total timing or anything for an ECM LOL
This is the same thing I heard from a dealer. As you can all see, there is no way for the dealer to detect the tune. Your tune is protected when you take your vehicle to the dealer. Folks that do our tunes use GM script so a GM dealer will not detect it.

[JZNNJX]

Even if the person that did the tune used a gm script they can match the oe script to the new script. the deveations from this script can be easily detected at any dealership. I hear warranty claims every day and dealers are getting hip and if the modded program causes a failure of any component outside oe specs then the warranty is void.

I had a dlr call up abought a droped lifter and per diag of the ecm that had oe programing showed a over rev 300rpm over redline. because the computer should not allow the engine to overrev warranty was voided stating custermer has a moded pcm in the car at one point and voided his warranty cost was $3800.00 bucks to owner of car. GM uses flawed logic when shooting down a claim if in guidelines should not happed(on paper) the the car will never let that happen and you are the one that suffers.

[Jizz]

I know I am new here but I have to do it...

http://www.racersden.net/forum/images/smilies/horse.gif

[1BADSS]

Well when I had my Trans Am with 150 shot of nitrous on the car, I took it in with the bottles still in the car and the dealer replaced the transmission and gears under warranty. The mechanics emptied one of my tanks just playing with my purge valve.lol I think it comes down to the dealer, if they like you all is good. I even asked my dealer if I turbo or supercharge my SS where does that leave me. They said go ahead cause they'd like to see how it goes and don't worry if anythings breaks.

[vetruck]

Well when I had my Trans Am with 150 shot of nitrous on the car, I took it in with the bottles still in the car and the dealer replaced the transmission and gears under warranty. The mechanics emptied one of my tanks just playing with my purge valve.lol I think it comes down to the dealer, if they like you all is good. I even asked my dealer if I turbo or supercharge my SS where does that leave me. They said go ahead cause they'd like to see how it goes and don't worry if anythings breaks.

Wow, so there is something good about living in Canada, I would have never guessed, hehe, J/K :D That is an awesome dealer you have there though :)

[SSportWagon]

You pay to play...

... once a powertrain mod goes on (yes, even a tune), I don't look to GM to cover it under warranty. Why should I? It didn't break within it's delivered design state, it broke because I modified it somehow and may have pushed that part beyond it's design limit.

Yes, I know there are guys that install nitrous, etc and then go in for powertrain warranty. All I have to say is thanks for adding to the cost for the rest of us because you want to have your cake and eat it to! :mad:

Don't play if you can't pay...

:m2:


While I agree with you - to a point - lets take the case (or several cases) of failed tranny's so far to STOCK SS's. It is a problem. It is happening.....

So, If I put a tune and CAI on, and my tranny takes a dump who's to say its the fault of the aftermarket stuff or a bum piece to begin with ??

[Dave]

While I agree with you - to a point - lets take the case (or several cases) of failed tranny's so far to STOCK SS's. It is a problem. It is happening.....

So, If I put a tune and CAI on, and my tranny takes a dump who's to say its the fault of the aftermarket stuff or a bum piece to begin with ??

Many CTS V owners tried to use this logic with the rear end problems. Of course GM says "What rear end problems?"

A few tranny problems (by percentage of TBSS) will not be a reason to call it a problem in GM's mind.

I'm sure GM could tell if a vehicle is stock or not if they want to. And if the tune is not noticeable today, it may be noticeable tomorrow. Then they'll question what you were hiding in the first place.

If you install anything that is not stock, then you must be prepared to pay to play.

And any good tune would be noticeable by any good mechanic just driving the car. If it isn't good, then you probably don't have to worry about them finding it. I'm sure Chris' tune is probably in the first statement.

[John Skiba]

While I agree with you - to a point - lets take the case (or several cases) of failed tranny's so far to STOCK SS's. It is a problem. It is happening.....

So, If I put a tune and CAI on, and my tranny takes a dump who's to say its the fault of the aftermarket stuff or a bum piece to begin with ??

It is happening... I'm sure there are rear ends having problems, I'm sure some LS2 crapped out, I'm sure someone is having electrical issues also in their TBSS's. That is a given since all is still built by man. I have no doubts or questions of that. I have yet to see any vehicle line without some sort of issue. I should say issues.

Are stock SS trannies blowing up... you bet!

Why? I'm sure some are manufacturing faults... assembly, etc.

Just as some are probably the fault of customer abuse! Yes abuse... guys doing full throttle runs through the twists or flooring it from every single light on 100 degree days every time they drive, etc. Even the best of best trannies will blow up when cooked to hell and back. How many posts have you seen of guys proclaiming to power slide their 4700+LB trucks!?!?!

Heck, look at some of the posts in this thread alone.

I had my Trans Am with 150 shot of nitrous on the car, I took it in with the bottles still in the car and the dealer replaced the transmission and gears under warranty.

yep, that sure sounds like a manufacturing defect for that transmission and gears! :rolleyes:

The problem (as with anything) is that a few of the screw balls that try to stick it to GM because they can't suck it up because they broke it, screw it up for the ones that have legit problems. The guys with legit problems will most likely try to give the general a chance to fix it, it's the guys that screw up their own **** and try to stick it to GM because they feel they are owed (for whatever reason) that are usually the loudest on the soap box.

So yeah, GM, are you listening, I'm going to put a 100 dry shot on my LEASED Trailblazer SS and beat the snot out of it every chance I get because you will fix it for as long as I own it since I give the heap back to you after 36 months. :rolleyes: But why is my trans blowing up and your giving me a hard time? I want one of those Toyota transmissions in my TBSS so I can put a 150 dry shot!!! ;) :(

[Rant mode off]

[John Skiba]

Many CTS V owners tried to use this logic with the rear end problems. Of course GM says "What rear end problems?"


So how do you build a rear end that will with stand guys staying in it through 3 gears of severe wheel hop?

What part of, YOU REAR END WILL EXPLODED ON YOU IF YOU LET THE WHEELS BOUNCE LIKE A CRAZED KID ON A POGO STICK don't most drivers with powerful cars not understand?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys in mustangs launch at the strip and watch them wheel hop in place. Hell, I remember one stock looking mustang wheel hop so bad at the line that I swear I saw the entire body gaps widen and shrink...FROM THE STANDS! The guy stayed in it forever. I was waiting for BOOOMMMMM Couldn't believe a late model car could flex so violently!

Is the CTS-V rear underengineered... maybe. I don't know but I've read about guys saying they were wheel hopping crazy through several gears. Then those same guys saying that their rears crapped out. Could it be.... nawwwww

[Dave]

My CTS V never saw wheel hop when I owned it because I didn't push it hard enough for it to do it. I went through one rear end at 1100 miles and the 2nd was howling when I sold the car at 15k after I changed the fluid about 1/2 dozen times.

I heard the 07 V has a new rear end. Many of us enthusiasts thought the pumpkin part of the rear end was too small for a 400hp car (not enough fluid to keep the thing cool). It pretty much baked itself to death.

Cadillac advertised the car to go from 0-60 in 4.6 seconds which is a very tough thing to do. A couple years later they said just "under 5 seconds".

Most people's problems came when they took it back for a 2nd time rear end repair. Cadillac would then look at the tires (that wear out by 15k if you are lucky) and say "Gee those tires look worn, you MUST be abusing the car." They really loved it when I brought it in around 5k and the rear end's mounts were loose.

And also GM developed new bushings which helped get rid of the pogo stick as you call it.

In the end, my V was stock and I never let it wheel hop and I still had problems. Now I wouldn't expect Cadillac to pay for it if I put a maggie on the car but they shouldn't expect someone that just bought a 400hp car to drive it as fast as a Prius. They should not be checking "how many times I redline the car" or look at the always worn tires. I'm sure some TBSS owners will run into dealer issues, even if their vehicle is stock.

In the end, GM doesn't care what you do to the car if it doesn't break. But when it does, you may have to pay to play.

[1BADSS]

It is happening... I'm sure there are rear ends having problems, I'm sure some LS2 crapped out, I'm sure someone is having electrical issues also in their TBSS's. That is a given since all is still built by man. I have no doubts or questions of that. I have yet to see any vehicle line without some sort of issue. I should say issues.

Are stock SS trannies blowing up... you bet!

Why? I'm sure some are manufacturing faults... assembly, etc.

Just as some are probably the fault of customer abuse! Yes abuse... guys doing full throttle runs through the twists or flooring it from every single light on 100 degree days every time they drive, etc. Even the best of best trannies will blow up when cooked to hell and back. How many posts have you seen of guys proclaiming to power slide their 4700+LB trucks!?!?!

Heck, look at some of the posts in this thread alone.



yep, that sure sounds like a manufacturing defect for that transmission and gears! :rolleyes:

The problem (as with anything) is that a few of the screw balls that try to stick it to GM because they can't suck it up because they broke it, screw it up for the ones that have legit problems. The guys with legit problems will most likely try to give the general a chance to fix it, it's the guys that screw up their own **** and try to stick it to GM because they feel they are owed (for whatever reason) that are usually the loudest on the soap box.

So yeah, GM, are you listening, I'm going to put a 100 dry shot on my LEASED Trailblazer SS and beat the snot out of it every chance I get because you will fix it for as long as I own it since I give the heap back to you after 36 months. :rolleyes: But why is my trans blowing up and your giving me a hard time? I want one of those Toyota transmissions in my TBSS so I can put a 150 dry shot!!! ;) :(

[Rant mode off]

Cry me a riverhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gifhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gif

I'll be running a 125 shot of N20 on my SS pretty soon too. If something breaks I know my dealer will fix it.

[John Skiba]

Cry me a riverhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gifhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gif

I'll be running a 125 shot of N20 on my SS pretty soon too. If something breaks I know my dealer will fix it.

Hey buddy, I'm glad every single one of us that buys a GM product can help you pay for your **** ups!

[1BADSS]

Hey buddy, I'm glad every single one of us that buys a GM product can help you pay for your **** ups!

Very much appreciated.:thumbsup: Keep up the good work.

[Trailblazin03]

Cry me a riverhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gifhttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/04hemiboy/violen.gif

I'll be running a 125 shot of N20 on my SS pretty soon too. If something breaks I know my dealer will fix it.

Hey what dealership do you usually go to? Alot of the dealerships around my area are *******s...looking for somewhere realiable.

[1BADSS]

Hey what dealership do you usually go to? Alot of the dealerships around my area are *******s...looking for somewhere realiable.

Where in Ontario are you?

[Trailblazin03]

Where in Ontario are you?

Im a little north of the GTA, 30 minutes north of Brampton (Caledon), Peel Region. Close to Orangeville.

I wouldnt mind driving like an hour or so as long as the dealerships were decent and personable.

[1BADSS]

Im a little north of the GTA, 30 minutes north of Brampton (Caledon), Peel Region. Close to Orangeville.

I wouldnt mind driving like an hour or so as long as the dealerships were decent and personable.

I'm about 5 hrs away. I'm near Montreal. I'll ask my dealer if he knows anybody around you that is good.

[Trailblazin03]

Sounds good, Thanks.

I got my truck from Dean Myers. They are one of the bigger dealerships in Ontario. I don't like them at all, so hopefully he won't mention that one. lol

[mcolvin]

I work at a Chevrolet dealership. Don't ever have to worry about warranty work, service manager likes to mod too!

[Fishhunter911]

HAHAHA Same with Mine, isnt that right chuck???:x

[Essque]

lol :D

Very much appreciated.:thumbsup: Keep up the good work.

[Red SS]

"Old boys have their playthings as well as young ones, the difference is only in the price."

-Franklin

[azachata]

Just a late question, but when you talk about gear hopping and wheel hopping what exactly do you mean? make the actuall rear wheels hop? I do not understand. Could someone please clairify this for me?

BTW, Dealers in Canada are extreemly easy going about this sort of thing, even when I had my 1996 explorer in 2004 (8 years old) I had them fixing things under "courtisy warrenty". That was a good day lol.

[Dave]

Wheel hop is when the axle is bouncing up and down trying to get traction not just doing a regular burn out. Some people say it looks like a pogo stick. It is real bad for the axle and the rest of the drive train and is usually caused by a drive train that is not secured enough or a chassis that is not stiff enough.

A lot of cars and trucks do it. I know the older Cadillac CTS Vs have a problem with wheel hop. I don't know about the newer one though. Mustangs are also known to do it to some extent.

[TonyGXP]

I will look in the morning but I am prety sure there is an area in the back of the manual about "high performance" driving or something to that effect?? if they put that in there, then give you a hard time about driving it hard, what message are they sending? why make something with 4.10's and 400/400 HP/TQ? let them give me a hard time..I bought 3 new GM vehicles in the past 23mos..GM doesn't need my business right? call GM customer service if you have a problem getting it repaired..just don't be blatently obvious about the mods, if they blame them fine, take them out and pay for the repair..and when it does the same thing, sue their ASS for the money for the original repair..fine line they walk doing that...if you know how to wheel and deal.

[B4U]

Yep, I'm not looking forward to any major warranty claims myself, but with how the transmissions on these things have been failing from time to time, I won't be surprised when/if mine goes.

Honestly, I'd like to see a dealer try and deny my warranty claim due to their claimed abuse or a tuned ecm/tcm. I'll just get a lawyer and have him break his foot off in their ass if they try. :)

FWIW, I wouldn't roll up into the service writer area purging nitrous left and right either though. :D

People who do have claims denied either are going to the wrong dealer, or aren't very smart to begin with IMO.

[04TBEXT]

Worked at (2) Buick dealerships in my life , both during the T-Type/Grand National era. Whenever one of these vehicles came into our shop with a catastrophic engine, transmission of rear axle failure, the Buick field rep would go directly to and open the trunk. They would look for tanks, tank brackets, lines, solenoids and any modifications in or around the engine intake area.
Saw a lot of warranty claims denied....
Speaking current day, I also noted in a previous post that a programmer explained that any and all programming will be overwritten when a PCM is re-flashed by a dealership. I know in my own experience, that when a vehicle comes in for a drivability, shifting, etc, concern, the PCM is immediately checked for the latest factory calibration/update. If the calibrations are not current, the PCM is immediately updated and then test driven for results/changes.
If this is fact, your $100/$200/$500 custom tune just went down the tubes. Sometimes this happens for a legitimate warranty failure where part component replacement and a current recalibration is the repair.