E85 Conversion Kits

[itstrick]

Alright so I was watching the local news and Gov. Tim Pawlenty of minn popped on talking about tring to get E85 Conversion Kits for nonE85 vehicals to run E85. Anyone dare to test it? aparently Flextek is making these kits which are still not aviable in the us just yet anyway. Thoughts?

[ehall0527]

I saw a comparison a while back where E85 would only save you maybe a max of $300 a year on fuel based on current prices for oil and E85. Im guessing those conversion kits arent too cheap and would take several years to recoup the money you spend. So unless E85 gets cheaper, or gas gets more expensive, it really wouldnt be worth it. Just my :m2:

[ontogenesis]

besides maybe a few seals, it doesn't seem like it should take anything but a new pcm flash to get the 360's to run e85, it's no different than running alcohol in a drag car, the pcm needs to dump more fuel in the cylinders and the lines and seals need to be alchohol resistant. shouldn't be a high cost conversion.

[Jman423]

I saw a comparison a while back where E85 would only save you maybe a max of $300 a year on fuel based on current prices for oil and E85. Im guessing those conversion kits arent too cheap and would take several years to recoup the money you spend. So unless E85 gets cheaper, or gas gets more expensive, it really wouldnt be worth it. Just my :m2:
Well, I wouldn't bet on gas prices staying put, I'm sure that will be one of the selling points when the kit hits the market.

Not to mention, isn't it pretty hard to find stations that offer the E85 at the pump? I don't know of any here in Orlando... :no:

[itstrick]

Well, I wouldn't bet on gas prices staying put, I'm sure that will be one of the selling points when the kit hits the market.

Not to mention, isn't it pretty hard to find stations that offer the E85 at the pump? I don't know of any here in Orlando... :no:


True, but here in the around here i know of 5 or 6 stations that have E-85 non in my city, I would have to drive 10 minutes but still

[tblazed]

If you want to use ethanol in a gas engine best to stick to the E10 blend.

E85 in a converted ( or factory "Flex-Fuel") gasoline engine will yield about 25-30% less MPG. I would not even consider a conversion of a gas engine. For E85 to have reasonable efficiency the engine needs to be running 14 to 15 : 1 compression. Even with government subsidies of app'x 54¢ a gallon it will still cost you more to run E85.

Ethanol has pulled back to about $2.50 a gallon wholesale from over $4 a month or two ago, but it's still more costly than regular gasoline at about $2.32 a gal wholesale. If you see it cheaper than gasoline it's because someone is absorbing the difference in cost to sell the stuff to the public.

Just wait til the corn use for ethanol hits the grocery store shelves! Everything from Cherrios to bread to milk to beef and chicken is going up because more farm land is now being used to grow corn for fuel ethanol. Not to mention the hundreds of gallons of water it takes to produce one gallon of ethanol.

[Spong]

If you want to use ethanol in a gas engine best to stick to the E10 blend.

E85 in a converted ( or factory "Flex-Fuel") gasoline engine will yield about 25-30% less MPG. I would not even consider a conversion of a gas engine. For E85 to have reasonable efficiency the engine needs to be running 14 to 15 : 1 compression. Even with government subsidies of app'x 54¢ a gallon it will still cost you more to run E85.

Ethanol has pulled back to about $2.50 a gallon wholesale from over $4 a month or two ago, but it's still more costly than regular gasoline at about $2.32 a gal wholesale. If you see it cheaper than gasoline it's because someone is absorbing the difference in cost to sell the stuff to the public.

Just wait til the corn use for ethanol hits the grocery store shelves! Everything from Cherrios to bread to milk to beef and chicken is going up because more farm land is now being used to grow corn for fuel ethanol. Not to mention the hundreds of gallons of water it takes to produce one gallon of ethanol.

:iagree:

I'm not even going to get started about what a joke Ethanol is. :mad:

[bronxblaza117]

isnt the idea of using E85 is to reduce our dependency on gas and to help the environment? at the same time alot of energy is required to produce E85...

[RRCarter]

If you want to use ethanol in a gas engine best to stick to the E10 blend.

E85 in a converted ( or factory "Flex-Fuel") gasoline engine will yield about 25-30% less MPG. I would not even consider a conversion of a gas engine. For E85 to have reasonable efficiency the engine needs to be running 14 to 15 : 1 compression. Even with government subsidies of app'x 54¢ a gallon it will still cost you more to run E85.

Ethanol has pulled back to about $2.50 a gallon wholesale from over $4 a month or two ago, but it's still more costly than regular gasoline at about $2.32 a gal wholesale. If you see it cheaper than gasoline it's because someone is absorbing the difference in cost to sell the stuff to the public.

Just wait til the corn use for ethanol hits the grocery store shelves! Everything from Cherrios to bread to milk to beef and chicken is going up because more farm land is now being used to grow corn for fuel ethanol. Not to mention the hundreds of gallons of water it takes to produce one gallon of ethanol.

I don't wanna start anything here but maybe you should learn more about it before you start bashing it. :rolleyes:

[tblazed]

I don't wanna start anything here but maybe you should learn more about it before you start bashing it. :rolleyes:

What else is there to know other than corn ethanol is a not going to replace imported oil, because of the energy it takes to produce it and the energy it yields per gallon, which is about 80,000 BTU vs 120,000 BTU for gasoline. I've been keeping up with fuel ethanol since 1991. I don't have anything against ethanol if used properly, but when you start using food stock to make it and run up the cost of groceries, and mislead the public that it's cleaner (it isn't) and that it will wean us somehow from imported oil, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Did you know that only about 50% of the oil we import actually goes into gasoline?

To do ethanol right other sources should be developed to make it, and vehicles specifically designed to run on it efficiently need to be built.

Have you looked at

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

This will verify what I said about Flex Fuel vehicles getting up to 30% less MPG on E85.

Enough lesson for today... there' a RACE on!


And spong.. THANKS for your wholehearted agreement from the middle of the corn ethanol belt, Nebraska!

[LineNoise]

What else is there to know other than corn ethanol is a not going to replace imported oil, because of the energy it takes to produce it and the energy it yields per gallon, which is about 80,000 BTU vs 120,000 BTU for gasoline. I've been keeping up with fuel ethanol since 1991. I don't have anything against ethanol if used properly, but when you start using food stock to make it and run up the cost of groceries, and mislead the public that it's cleaner (it isn't) and that it will wean us somehow from imported oil, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Did you know that only about 50% of the oil we import actually goes into gasoline?

To do ethanol right other sources should be developed to make it, and vehicles specifically designed to run on it efficiently need to be built.

Have you looked at

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

This will verify what I said about Flex Fuel vehicles getting up to 30% less MPG on E85.

Enough lesson for today... there' a RACE on!


And spong.. THANKS for your wholehearted agreement from the middle of the corn ethanol belt, Nebraska!


:iagree:

[itstrick]

And spong.. THANKS for your wholehearted agreement from the middle of the corn ethanol belt, Nebraska!


Cough (iowa produces more corn) Cough :D :laugh:


I did compair 2 ford exploders:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/itstrick/ffv.jpg

[Jman423]

Wow, that sheds a different light... :undecided

Whats the point of paying a few cents less to get 4MPG less?

[RRCarter]

Let me say I am not promoting ethanol. I agree, and have mentioned the loss of MPG in another thread. But ethanol has never been promoted as a replacement to traditional fuel....it is an alternative.

The part I disagree with is this......

Just wait til the corn use for ethanol hits the grocery store shelves! Everything from Cherrios to bread to milk to beef and chicken is going up because more farm land is now being used to grow corn for fuel ethanol. Not to mention the hundreds of gallons of water it takes to produce one gallon of ethanol.

The farmers are not using the land they would use for their animals. They get more from the animals per land usage than anything else right now. How can you blame rising prices of these items because of the ethanol? There are multiple economic variables that are the reason of the rising costs. Which include higher wages, rising production costs, and transportation costs.

Just how much land do you think it takes to raise a chicken? Just curious.

What else is there to know other than corn ethanol is a not going to replace imported oil,

Enough lesson for today... there' a RACE on!


And spong.. THANKS for your wholehearted agreement from the middle of the corn ethanol belt, Nebraska!

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/locations/ <---ethanol plant locations

It's pretty insulting that you mention a "lesson" like you were talking to a child. And that you try to discredit me by mentioning the other post they were from NE and apparently living in AZ means I wouldn't know anything.
Sorry to burst your bubble but I am from the MN IA SD tristate area. And yes IOWA produces more corn. I didn't disagree with most of what you said, just the part about pretty much everything going to skyrocket in price because of ethanol production.

[itstrick]

Let me say I am not promoting ethanol. I agree, and have mentioned the loss of MPG in another thread. But ethanol has never been promoted as a replacement to traditional fuel....it is an alternative.

The part I disagree with is this......


The farmers are not using the land they would use for their animals. They get more from the animals per land usage than anything else right now. How can you blame rising prices of these items because of the ethanol? There are multiple economic variables that are the reason of the rising costs. Which include higher wages, rising production costs, and transportation costs.

Just how much land do you think it takes to raise a chicken? Just curious.



http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/locations/ <---ethanol plant locations

It's pretty insulting that you mention a "lesson" like you were talking to a child. And that you try to discredit me by mentioning the other post they were from NE and apparently living in AZ means I wouldn't know anything.
Sorry to burst your bubble but I am from the MN IA SD tristate area. And yes IOWA produces more corn. I didn't disagree with most of what you said, just the part about pretty much everything going to skyrocket in price because of ethanol production.

Righ-toe

so an answer to your question:

"It takes 2.5 acres of land to feed one person beef, or 2 people chicken. This includes the space animals occupy and the food grown to feed them. 2.5 acres per one cow or two chicken."

I asked jeevs your question. :D

FYI:
SD has 10 plants
NE has 18 plants
IA has 29 plants
according to said list

[Spong]

Wow, that sheds a different light... :undecided

Whats the point of paying a few cents less to get 4MPG less?

Exactly. You hear all this hoopla about E85 vehicles blah blah blah but unless the price of E85 is much less than regular gas, it's a losing deal.

I would fully support Ethanol if it was really a viable alternative to gasoline. A product that takes more energy to produce it than it returns seems pretty stupid to me. Not only that but without something like $0.51 per gallon of government subsidies, it would be way more expensive than gasoline.

Here's another question, what happens in a year like we're having now (heat & drought) when corn yields are going to be below normal? If we have nothing but ethanol fuel, does this mean gas prices shoot up because corn is in short supply? It seems like every "next great thing" always ends up having an effect somewhere else.

They're trying to ram E10 in all grades on fuel down our throat right now in NE. So far it hasn't passed the legislature but Ethanol is big politics here in this stupid state so it's only a matter of time. :mad: :hissy: Nothing good ever comes out of a Government mandate.

[kendico]

In the early 1980's, Phillips 66 marketed in the south, a gasoline that was 10-15% ethanol. It had a higher premium grade octane rating for the price of regular, however, many problems developed in cars that used it regularly. It deteriorated the fuel system seals and ate the lining from the inside of the fuel tank. This melted lining clogged the fuel system and injectors (mostly throttle bodies back then). It also left pitts in the pistons and any aluminum it came in contact with. I unfortunately was one of the victims. I had a throttle body 305 V8 Trans Am. It had fuel system problems continually after that. A string of law suits caused Phillips to quickly yank it off the market. So if E85 is 85% ethanol, I just wonder what the effects on a car would be that isn't made for ethanol consumption. :confused:

If there is any addition demand for feed grain, it is bound to raise grocery prices. Remember supply and demand? :D

[ehall0527]

Here is my :m2: on the affect of E85 on groceries...

Grocery prices are already increasing due to the cost of gasoline. Trucks that deliver the groceries obviously use gasoline, so therefore the cost of the groceries are affected by gas prices. Also, if there is an increased demand for corn and its by-products (ie: production of more E85), the cost of corn based products will increase. Basic supply and demand, as demand increases, so do prices. So that stands to increase the price of certain groceries even more. I really have no idea if this is true, it's just my hypothesis.

There is currently research being done to create a more energy-efficient method of producing E85. But obviously it takes a long time for research to turn into real results and marketability. Until a better process is created, Im not sold on E85. Honestly, I dont believe E85 is the answer at all, just another "patch" (like hybrids) until hydrogen fuel cells or some other form of energy can be perfected.

[Sport_truck]

buy a Prius and stop B!tching :D J/K

Im with Jman423 based on tha comparison that Itstrick found

[Spong]

In the early 1980's, Phillips 66 marketed in the south, a gasoline that was 10-15% ethanol. It had a higher premium grade octane rating for the price of regular, however, many problems developed in cars that used it regularly. It deteriorated the fuel system seals and ate the lining from the inside of the fuel tank. This melted lining clogged the fuel system and injectors (mostly throttle bodies back then). It also left pitts in the pistons and any aluminum it came in contact with. I unfortunately was one of the victims. I had a throttle body 305 V8 Trans Am. It had fuel system problems continually after that. A string of law suits caused Phillips to quickly yank it off the market. So if E85 is 85% ethanol, I just wonder what the effects on a car would be that isn't made for ethanol consumption. :confused:

If there is any addition demand for feed grain, it is bound to raise grocery prices. Remember supply and demand? :D

Cars built since the early 90's have been made to be able to use small percentage ethanol fuels (around 10%). If you put it in an older car you will see what you described happen.

Cars have to be modified another step to be able to use E85.

[tblazed]

I didn't disagree with most of what you said, just the part about pretty much everything going to skyrocket in price because of ethanol production.

I guess you haven't read the Wall Street Jounal, Investor's Business Daily, watched CNBC or Bloomberg Business News lately. The rising effect on food prices has been all over the news.

It's pretty insulting that you mention a "lesson" like you were talking to a child...

RR... When you quoted me and said directly to me "you should learn more about it before you start bashing it" without stating any facts to back up how exactly I am wrong or how I am "bashing" it, you invited my additional comments and the "lesson".

[MTPockets]

I was all for ethanol until I caught an article in our local paper. Some developers are planning to build an ethanol plant at a defunct grain-mill site near our water front. The article goes on how it will employ ~65 people & how it will be a great opportunity for technical people. Bottom line? Avg yearly salary will be $35K. What can you do with that with today's prices!:crazy:

Joel

[chrisbar]

This is taken from an article on cars.com i suggest you read it in it's entiready. I did post a snippet below.

http://cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=fuel&subject=fuelAlt&story=e85&referer=&aff=national


"The best reasons to buy an E85 vehicle are to decrease U.S. dependence on petroleum — which is non-renewable and comes mainly from foreign countries — and to keep more of your money in this country.

E85 also has environmental benefits, although the degree is in question. A flex-fuel car burning E85 has different levels of tailpipe pollutants, but it's not dramatically better overall than gasoline exhaust. Separate from true pollution emissions, E85's output of carbon dioxide — a greenhouse gas — is again comparable to that of gasoline, at the car's tailpipe. The theoretical benefit is that the carbon in ethanol comes from corn plants, which, in a sense, recycle the carbon.

In comparison, petroleum is carbon that was trapped underground for millions of years before being released into the ecosystem. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition says E85 reduces CO2 by about 36 - 42 percent versus gas. Still, scientists point out that petroleum is used to plant, fertilize, harvest, process and transport E85.

Ethanol prices are already subsidized in some states. Buyers in Illinois pay no sales tax, which brings down the posted price per gallon (tax is included in per-gallon prices for straight gasoline, not added on top of the total). Price hinges on supply and demand and economies of scale.

Ethanol proponents say an oft-cited study that claimed ethanol takes more energy to produce than it gives back is no longer accurate. According to NEVC, the overall energy advantage over gasoline is 3 to 1. This ratio is expected to reach 9 to 1 when the industry moves away from food crops and toward waste vegetation and/or plants that are simpler and cheaper to grow, harvest and process. Switchgrass, which President Bush mentioned in the State of the Union, is one such plant.

As alternative fuels go, biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel have great advantages in the real world. They can be distributed and dispensed like conventional liquid fuel, and used in vehicles that cost automakers very little in terms of additional cost. The same cannot be said of hybrids, which force consumers to pay a higher sticker price."

[Spong]

While we're reading articles, here's a good one too.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html

[MTPockets]

Alright so I was watching the local news and Gov. Tim Pawlenty of minn popped on talking about tring to get E85 Conversion Kits for nonE85 vehicals to run E85. Anyone dare to test it? aparently Flextek is making these kits which are still not aviable in the us just yet anyway. Thoughts?

IMO, it wouldn't be worth the resources to convert a TB. You would be better off trading up to a new tahoe which come flex-fuel equipped right out of the box.

Joel

[ontogenesis]

Avg yearly salary will be $35K. What can you do with that with today's prices!:crazy:

Joel

Quite a bit, as an E4 in the Air Force, my total yearly income is $26k including assumed cost of benefits. Forget about ethanol and give the ENLISTED military a targeted raise.


Ethanol isn't supposed to be a wonder fuel, it's a strategy for interim reduction of dependency on foreign oil. I hope none of you are expecting hydrogen to be cheap or pollution free because you'll be very sadly disappointed. Although a hydrogen engine's combustion creates only pure water, the cost of hydrogen production is very high and uses alot of energy, in turn causing pollution. Also, I can't imagine the insurance premium increase that'll happen after hydrogen becomes commonplace in cold climates and all that exhaust water causes the roads to become slip and slides.

[kendico]

Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the U.S., so we pay with our taxes to make a fuel less expensive that isn't viable in the market and then suffer from higher prices on food! Sounds like a lose-lose proposition.

We should be spending our money on making hydrogen viable. It is an endless supply without pollution as it produces just pure water. A water seperater and tank would fix the wet/frozen road problem.