I6 Gains on the dyno

[AlvinPCMforless]

These are back to back runs with our programming vs. Stock. We did both test in 2nd gear so that the we could test the bone stock programming with our own. Lower gear ratios typically show lower numbers. If we would have dynoed it in 3rd we feel the numbers would be closer to 220-230. Anyway, thats not important... what is important is the difference BEFORE vs. AFTER with our tuning. NOTE: This truck is a 05 Trailblazer I6 w/ 87 gas and BONE stock. Better results come with premium fuel.

http://www.pcmforless.com/images/dynosheets/trailblazer.jpg

[ghoster]

Just out of curiosity, why does it say I5 at the top instead of I6? Typo? You knew somebody would have to hassle you!:D

[AlvinPCMforless]

Just out of curiosity, why does it say I5 at the top instead of I6? Typo? You knew somebody would have to hassle you!:D


Typo.. :( I'll fix it. someone pointed that out already.. A I5 typcially dynos 170ish and can hit 185 after a tune.. Its obvious this isn't a I5

[AlvinPCMforless]

Heres what a I5 graph looks like just so theres no confusion.
You can also go to http://www.pcmforless.com/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=25&func=showcat&catid=8

to see some other graphs.

One of these days I'll fix that other graph.

http://www.pcmforless.com/images/dynosheets/04Canyon.jpg

[ghoster]

so....just for my own uses, according to the dyno, the I6 has approximatlely a 31% drivetrain loss? Doesn't that seem a little high? Anyway, thanks for the good info. Other than the tune, what would you say would be the next best hp gain?

[ieatglue]

It might be a 4x4, and the transfer case would be weighing it down :undecided

[ghoster]

It might be a 4x4, and the transfer case would be weighing it down :undecided


Wouldn't think that should make a difference on a rear wheel drive dyno.... but I will wait and see what they say.:cool:

[ScarabEpic22]

so....just for my own uses, according to the dyno, the I6 has approximatlely a 31% drivetrain loss? Doesn't that seem a little high? Anyway, thanks for the good info. Other than the tune, what would you say would be the next best hp gain?

As Alvin said, these pulls were done in 2nd (pretty sure more power made is actually being made) as there is not a 1:1 engine to trans ratio (in 3rd it is a 1:1).

Also, throw in 4WD, and that could be close to 31%, although I bet its actually closer to about 25%.


___________________________________

Using the estimated numbers Alvin said (220-230hp, using 220 to be conservative), that is about a 20% loss (220hp/275hp= .8 or 80% actual power = 20% loss). Thats not to shabby in any cas for a 4WD TB, and if my TB is putting out 220 to the wheels, I have about a 19% loss because Im an 02 with 5hp less than you 03-05 guys.

[ghoster]

As Alvin said, these pulls were done in 2nd (pretty sure more power made is actually being made) as there is not a 1:1 engine to trans ratio (in 3rd it is a 1:1).

Also, throw in 4WD, and that could be close to 31%, although I bet its actually closer to about 25%.


___________________________________

Using the estimated numbers Alvin said (220-230hp, using 220 to be conservative), that is about a 20% loss (220hp/275hp= .8 or 80% actual power = 20% loss). Thats not to shabby in any cas for a 4WD TB, and if my TB is putting out 220 to the wheels, I have about a 19% loss because Im an 02 with 5hp less than you 03-05 guys.

umm.....based on his base number of 189 (approx in stock form)rwhp, and a stock number of 275 Hp at the engine that would be a 31% loss in stock form. If it was 220 post tune, then the engine hp would go up the same %...so it would be a 31 hp gain, or 306 hp at the engine.

I guess what I am saying, is that the driveline loss will never change regardless of tune. right?

[AlvinPCMforless]

As Alvin said, these pulls were done in 2nd (pretty sure more power made is actually being made) as there is not a 1:1 engine to trans ratio (in 3rd it is a 1:1).

Also, throw in 4WD, and that could be close to 31%, although I bet its actually closer to about 25%.


___________________________________

Using the estimated numbers Alvin said (220-230hp, using 220 to be conservative), that is about a 20% loss (220hp/275hp= .8 or 80% actual power = 20% loss). Thats not to shabby in any cas for a 4WD TB, and if my TB is putting out 220 to the wheels, I have about a 19% loss because Im an 02 with 5hp less than you 03-05 guys.

Yep, exactly what he said.

Take any car and dyno it in say 2nd then in 3rd and you'll have a difference of usually around 20/30 hp or so. By the book your supposed to dyno in a 1:1 gear ratio (tranny). The reason why I dynoed the truck in 2nd is because its the only way we could get a stock reading because of the speedometer. In 3rd gear the truck was hitting 140+ if I remeber right.. That presented another unrelated problem and that is Cat OVER temp. The dyno run was taking so long the truck would occasionally go into a mode called CAT over temp mode which complicated testing. Dynoing the truck in 2nd gear solved that.

[ghoster]

Yep, exactly what he said.

Take any car and dyno it in say 2nd then in 3rd and you'll have a difference of usually around 20/30 hp or so. By the book your supposed to dyno in a 1:1 gear ratio (tranny). The reason why I dynoed the truck in 2nd is because its the only way we could get a stock reading because of the speedometer. In 3rd gear the truck was hitting 140+ if I remeber right.. That presented another unrelated problem and that is Cat OVER temp. The dyno run was taking so long the truck would occasionally go into a mode called CAT over temp mode which complicated testing. Dynoing the truck in 2nd gear solved that.

ok ok...I think I almost have this. So because of the goofy way Chevy made this thing, its not very cooperative on a dyno? right? So you would think it probably has more like a 25% drive train loss, as opposed to the 31% that the numbers show. What would you think the 2wd loss is campared to the 4wd?

Their has been so much garbage and guesses and estimations that it is nice to see the actual numbers. By any chance do you know what year the I6 was and was it 4wd?

[AlvinPCMforless]

Yep it was is a 05 trailblazer 19k miles 4wd/Awd w/ 3.73 gearing.

Its no-ones fault really. It was just something that should have been dynoed in something between 2nd and 3rd gear. 2nd gear is too undergeard for the dyno and 3rd is just over geared (with the tires and all) I just chose 2nd especially because we could load a totally stock file in and get an accurate comparison.

Is there any other dynojet dynographs for the I6 out there? I've seen a few other dyno graphs but they have all been drawn with excel or the like.

Besides that I have seen good gains with premium fuel and I'm also fond of the plastic K&N intakes.

[ghoster]

Yep it was is a 05 trailblazer 19k miles 4wd/Awd w/ 3.73 gearing.

Its no-ones fault really. It was just something that should have been dynoed in something between 2nd and 3rd gear. 2nd gear is too undergeard for the dyno and 3rd is just over geared (with the tires and all) I just chose 2nd especially because we could load a totally stock file in and get an accurate comparison.

Is there any other dynojet dynographs for the I6 out there? I've seen a few other dyno graphs but they have all been drawn with excel or the like.

Besides that I have seen good gains with premium fuel and I'm also fond of the plastic K&N intakes.


I am not faulting your dyno or gear selection or anything!! I just wondered why....and now I know. I have the plastic Airaid intake. Works well for me, and I like the sound. So have you set a tune up for maximum performance on it? I am curious how much we can get out of it when pushed to the limit.

[AlvinPCMforless]

I am not faulting your dyno or gear selection or anything!! I just wondered why....and now I know. I have the plastic Airaid intake. Works well for me, and I like the sound. So have you set a tune up for maximum performance on it? I am curious how much we can get out of it when pushed to the limit.

I think you took me wrong. I thought in your last post you where saying GM made them unfriendly to dynos.. They didn't its not really there fault. they designed it for the road... not a dyno.

With premium fuel, CAI (I like plastic, and reputable brand is fine), and a tune you are looking at a big improvement over factory. The factory air box cover alone is just super restrictive.

I don't like to sell our I6 tunes on the dynosheets because afterall it is a SUV... Who drives it 100% throttle all the time? We are able to make very nice improvements to every day driving that you should notice immediately after installing our PCM. WOT performance comes along with the driveablity and transmission improvements we have to offer.

[ghoster]

Well...I am the one that drives it like I stole it.:D Mine is a garge queen and oly comes out on nice sunny days.......and it comes out running hard and fast!:D

[AlvinPCMforless]

Well...I am the one that drives it like I stole it.:D Mine is a garge queen and oly comes out on nice sunny days.......and it comes out running hard and fast!:D


Lets just say its because of my garage queen and 2 other toys I have a I6 Trailblazer and not a SS ;)

[ghoster]

Lets just say its because of my garage queen and 2 other toys I have a I6 Trailblazer and not a SS ;)

I have a wife...thats why I have an I6. Though I also have a 93 BMW 740i as a daily driver and winter beater. It sits out in the weather while my TB takes up both spaces in my 2 car garage.:D

[ScarabEpic22]

My bad on the #s, I was just trying to throw some #s out there. I really dont care what my TB makes, it will never be as much as an SS (unless there becomes some sort of FI on the market), just that a tune makes it so much more driveable in DD useage.

[ghoster]

My bad on the #s, I was just trying to throw some #s out there. I really dont care what my TB makes, it will never be as much as an SS (unless there becomes some sort of FI on the market), just that a tune makes it so much more driveable in DD useage.

I totally agree. I am just trying to sort out what the different types of tunes can do..... and for that matter what the different trucks are doing. I use mine differently than you....or for that matter...most TB owners.:cool: Fun for me is making a vehicle do something it was never meant to do. I just need the help of the tuners from time to time to figure out my next direction. I would like an SS too, its just not in the budget currently. So I will make do with the toys I have.:D

[tblazed]

Heres what a I5 graph looks like just so theres no confusion.

http://www.pcmforless.com/images/dynosheets/04Canyon.jpg

I sent this to a friend with a 2004 Colorado i5, first thing he asked about is why it's displayed in MPH. Usually power vs RPM isn't it? Is that about the same thing just showing the wheel speed?

[jdjohnson50]

With premium fuel, CAI (I like plastic, and reputable brand is fine), and a tune you are looking at a big improvement over factory.

Hey Alvin,

Are you thinking of heat soak in the metal CAIs verses plastic? I'm thinking of wraping my K&N (aluminum) CAI in foam/foil pipe insulation to reduce this effect. I'm also going to seal up the K&N heat shield using black adhesive backed pipe insulation since there is at least a half inch gap all around the bottom of the shield. They give you weather striping to seal the top against the hood, but leave a 1/2" gap around the bottom. What's up with that??:confused:

Jeff

[French TB]

Alvin,

Your dyno sheet for TB I6 is sae data on wheel, or sae data on flywheel?

Yves

[Kelly_PCMforless]

Alvin,

Your dyno sheet for TB I6 is sae data on wheel, or sae data on flywheel?

Yves

At the wheels on the dyno.

[jaylind]

Okay now, I have been thinking about this for a few weeks, I want the tune. BUT, the only engine mod I have is a K&N stock air filter replacement. Should I do "other MODS" first? I would like to do the CAI, CATBACK, etc... I am on a budget, so I dont want to waste money on a tune that I may have to send back...I have 2 vehicles so I can take the down time to send in the PCM...but if i do the PCM first then the rest will I have to reprogram? Also If i send in OEM PCM will I need the other fix($35-$50 dealer reprogram)?


Help!
Jay

[jaylind]

One more thing the factory HP specs on a 2002 are 270HP at the CRANK and not the wheels as the dyno test results are calculate right? I think thats right but I wanted to say it aloud for all to know. If I am wrong correct me please....


Jay

[tjxray99]

Jay

Yeah factory specs are always at the crank HP so you would be at close to 300 hp at the crank with the tune after calculating for drivetrain losses

TJ

[Kelly_PCMforless]

Okay now, I have been thinking about this for a few weeks, I want the tune. BUT, the only engine mod I have is a K&N stock air filter replacement. Should I do "other MODS" first? I would like to do the CAI, CATBACK, etc... I am on a budget, so I dont want to waste money on a tune that I may have to send back...I have 2 vehicles so I can take the down time to send in the PCM...but if i do the PCM first then the rest will I have to reprogram? Also If i send in OEM PCM will I need the other fix($35-$50 dealer reprogram)?


Help!
Jay

We can just program it ahead of time for those modifications...as far as what order to do them in, our tune is one of the cheaper things you can do and makes the biggest difference :)

[ScarabEpic22]

We can just program it ahead of time for those modifications...as far as what order to do them in, our tune is one of the cheaper things you can do and makes the biggest difference :)

Get a tune first, best thing you can do. Have PCM4Less tune it for a catback, etc first and then get one eventually down the line. Mine is tuned for a CAI and I dont have a CAI yet (really need to work on that one...).

[Laloosh]

Im very skeptical on mods. My previous car was an import with intake, raceheader, no cats, exhaust, pulleys, cams, safc for tunning, and a ported intake manifold, i could never really tell a big difference after each mod. My trailblazer has an intake and now the tune, premium fuel, shift settings on level 2. After only 54 miles i can def feel a difference in the power. Before something use to happen to my truck around 5k rmp, it would just pull harder. After the tune i feel that my midrange picked up so much that i can no longer feel the difference at 5k rmp. The truck became my "jumpy". It just feels lighter on its feet. By far the best bang for the buck mod for the trailblazer!

[jaylind]

And the CASE LEARN? If I send mine in and get mine back I will not need to do it? vs the swap method...

Jay

[Blue Flame 6]

Im very skeptical on mods. My previous car was an import with intake, raceheader, no cats, exhaust, pulleys, cams, safc for tunning, and a ported intake manifold, i could never really tell a big difference after each mod. My trailblazer has an intake and now the tune, premium fuel, shift settings on level 2. After only 54 miles i can def feel a difference in the power. Before something use to happen to my truck around 5k rmp, it would just pull harder. After the tune i feel that my midrange picked up so much that i can no longer feel the difference at 5k rmp. The truck became my "jumpy". It just feels lighter on its feet. By far the best bang for the buck mod for the trailblazer!

This is the same story I have heard several times. Everyone is happy with their PCMFORLESS tune. But I am afraid to start my truck down the mod road. (Once I start I may never stop.) More specifically, I am afraid that GM put that torque management in for a reason (to save driveline parts). I love the idea of the tune, but I don't want my truck to start eating transmissions like my brother's blown Avalanche. I know that forced induction is a whole other ball game, but you get the point. I think I drive my vehicles harder than most, and I don't want any reliability (or warranty) issues. :undecided

[dpshook]

the boost at 5k you are refferring to is the vvt on the echaust side, every tune ive tried has not been able to keep the vvt so i went back to stock

[ScarabEpic22]

the boost at 5k you are refferring to is the vvt on the echaust side, every tune ive tried has not been able to keep the vvt so i went back to stock

What are you talking about?

The slight surge at ~4500rpm is the VVT changing to get more hp at higher rpm.

I know for a fact my PCM4Less/EFILive flashed tune keeps VVT and modifies it for an extra boost. Believe me, their tune does keep VVT and changes it for the better.


No tune can completely remove VVT, unless the exhaust cam is physically removed. It is PCM controlled, so maybe the tuner didnt adjust the VVT settings properly.

[AlvinPCMforless]

You know whats funny is there are some other tuners that change VVT but its quite obvious they have never had the truck on the dyno. You'll notice some guys with tunes from other vendors note how loud the exhaust will be after the tune.. Its because they are changing VVT completely the wrong way.

I've seen them do things that make the trucks really loud and loose 20hp guarenteed. I guess some people just hear the noise and think that it is faster.

[MichEnvoyBoy]

Im just saying this: I do not have a tune and Im never "modded" any of my vehicles. But by far, the compliments of the level of service and care you get from PCMFORLESS says more than enough to me! :)
I was looking at other vendors on the site but am determined to go through Alvin. I cant say I've read 1 bad thing at all in this forum. Im very impressed :D

I just have to grow the balls to actually submit the order :D Im working on it....lol.

Any advice for a newbie tuner? I have a 2002 Envoy SLT I6 (bone stock)with 4.10 gears and 92,000 miles. I tow 1-2x a year about 5 miles (to the marina) so Im not going to even take that into account.
Question: It seems that everybody is picking level 2 for shift firmness. I dont want the thing to drive around like a racecar, I just want crisper, more precise shifts. Should I go with 1 maybe? Has anybody else picked 1?

And, I wanted to pick the mid-grade fuel. I dont mind paying $.10 extra per gallon for a lot better performance. Would I get the same performance out of regular unlead (87 octane)? Or would only noticeable performance gains be out of high octane (92-93 octane)??

Those are my only questions really. I've learned everything else reading this forum!

[xceebeex]

Question: It seems that everybody is picking level 2 for shift firmness. I dont want the thing to drive around like a racecar, I just want crisper, more precise shifts. Should I go with 1 maybe? Has anybody else picked 1?

And, I wanted to pick the mid-grade fuel. I dont mind paying $.10 extra per gallon for a lot better performance. Would I get the same performance out of regular unlead (87 octane)? Or would only noticeable performance gains be out of high octane (92-93 octane)??

Those are my only questions really. I've learned everything else reading this forum!

Those are pretty much my questions too. I am really close to ordering a tune, but I gotta get my gas leak taken care of first.

[juventus1983]

i have an 89/93 W4M tune and i theres a huge difference btw the two fuel grades. 93 is worth it.

[AlvinPCMforless]

Im just saying this: I do not have a tune and Im never "modded" any of my vehicles. But by far, the compliments of the level of service and care you get from PCMFORLESS says more than enough to me! :)
I was looking at other vendors on the site but am determined to go through Alvin. I cant say I've read 1 bad thing at all in this forum. Im very impressed :D

I just have to grow the balls to actually submit the order :D Im working on it....lol.

Any advice for a newbie tuner? I have a 2002 Envoy SLT I6 (bone stock)with 4.10 gears and 92,000 miles. I tow 1-2x a year about 5 miles (to the marina) so Im not going to even take that into account.
Question: It seems that everybody is picking level 2 for shift firmness. I dont want the thing to drive around like a racecar, I just want crisper, more precise shifts. Should I go with 1 maybe? Has anybody else picked 1?

And, I wanted to pick the mid-grade fuel. I dont mind paying $.10 extra per gallon for a lot better performance. Would I get the same performance out of regular unlead (87 octane)? Or would only noticeable performance gains be out of high octane (92-93 octane)??

Those are my only questions really. I've learned everything else reading this forum!

Hi,

I understand how overwelming it might seem looking at the ordersheet. If you would rather you can call us and tell us how you use your truck. With a simple 15 minute conversation I can pick a tune that really suits you. Just from what you have written I would suggest at 87 tune, mild towing, and stage 2 shifting. The stage 2 shift will shift the truck like it should have from the factory. It will not bang or jerk but be quick and positive. If you get it and you do not like it please let me know and we will be glad to adjust accordingly.

I appreciate the comments on our buisness practices. We have always tried to give the customers a good value and be as fair as possible for them.

Thanks again.

i have an 89/93 W4M tune and i theres a huge difference btw the two fuel grades. 93 is worth it.

We are able to see HUGE differences on just 87 gas. There are minor gains for fuel grades above that but for I6 trucks I recommend just our 87 tune. Most of the time when you see a HUGE difference between premium and mid grade gas it means your truck is knocking on mid grade and retarding timing.

[DeeCee]

Do these tunes have the "fixes" or patchs I keep reading about us needing? My voy is acting odd and occationally throws a CEL for the CPS. I changed the fuel filter, cleaned the TB, and had all the fluids changed out. I'm starting to think the '02 PCM is either tired or just needs some updates. mo powa is always nice as well.

[Trailblazin]

here's some runs of my tune before stock and after with a wideband street tune..... did this 2months after i got HP Tuners.. would like to dyno now after smoothing all the creaks and crannys, but my tires would lose me at least 20whp :(

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/2168000-2168999/2168457_49_full.jpg

[AlvinPCMforless]

Do these tunes have the "fixes" or patchs I keep reading about us needing? My voy is acting odd and occationally throws a CEL for the CPS. I changed the fuel filter, cleaned the TB, and had all the fluids changed out. I'm starting to think the '02 PCM is either tired or just needs some updates. mo powa is always nice as well.

Yes - we start with a fresh calibration - the latest from GM actually, on our $150 PCM special. So if there was an update along the way to get rid of a random CEL, that would take care of it.

[blandmiller]

Trailblazin, I hope the wideband sensor was not properly inserted in the exhaust. Those AFRs look terminally lean.

[Nukedog]

Yep -TB needs to get that AFR in the 13.2 range while moving...

[jaylind]

Alvin, I will be calling as soon as the Tax man pays my..around 9 Feb or sooner...


Jay

[Trailblazin]

Trailblazin, I hope the wideband sensor was not properly inserted in the exhaust. Those AFRs look terminally lean.

There's were not mine :p the after tune AFR seems decent though, i got it from a 14.7 to a 12.7 @ WOT on my LM1... it did showed more on the dyne AFR though :/