CAI & Tune Ultimate Shootout

[rrmccabe]

I am getting tired (feeling bad) about getting off topic in a few threads after being questioned about why I removed my ADM tune.

As some of you know, I recently ordered a Vector Motorsports CAI and tune after having "difficulties" with the ADM CAI and tune. Well actually, it was only the tune. As far as I know, the CAI was fine.

The ADM vs. Vector battle is similar to the age old back and forth between the bowtie and blue oval camps. Both vendors feel they have the best product and both have a loyal following.

I have posted my info on a website click here (http://www.***********/rich) and will continue to post data as the results from the Vector product are added. This includes electronic results including tuner scan logs and ET results.

At this point I have no idea the outcome but will say I miss having a tuned truck (so far ADM) and driving it stock is not near as much fun.

Rich

[JohnnyZ28]

I highly doubt they'd have a shootout. From the VMS to the ADM trucks they make very similar power on the dyno. With that being said I would imagine they'd run similar times. I would imagine the loser would complain about the weather, the difference in vehicles, etc.

The problem isn't that power isn't being made (from what I have read) its HOW the power is being made and what areas are being skewed that shouldn't be (torque management, knock, etc.)

Someone already called out Chris to Las Vegas. Said he'd pay for his plane tickets and if the VMS tune was better than the ADM tune he would give him $500. Chris stated that it wasn't even worth his time to leave the office for 1 hour. You know, Chris runs the sales, shipping, all the online stuff, etc. over at Vector. Do you know how many sales he would miss out on by not being there?

Just look at how many people it takes to lure him out of Michigan. It literally takes numerous cars that need tunes for him to leave. And, when he leaves he has people waiting to get tuned up. I wish I had that sort of following.

If this happens, great.. but I doubt it would.

[rrmccabe]

I highly doubt they'd have a shootout. From the VMS to the ADM trucks they make very similar power on the dyno. With that being said I would imagine they'd run similar times. I would imagine the loser would complain about the weather, the difference in vehicles, etc.

The problem isn't that power isn't being made (from what I have read) its HOW the power is being made and what areas are being skewed that shouldn't be (torque management, knock, etc.)

Someone already called out Chris to Las Vegas. Said he'd pay for his plane tickets and if the VMS tune was better than the ADM tune he would give him $500. Chris stated that it wasn't even worth his time to leave the office for 1 hour. You know, Chris runs the sales, shipping, all the online stuff, etc. over at Vector. Do you know how many sales he would miss out on by not being there?

Just look at how many people it takes to lure him out of Michigan. It literally takes numerous cars that need tunes for him to leave. And, when he leaves he has people waiting to get tuned up. I wish I had that sort of following.

If this happens, great.. but I doubt it would.

I think you missed the whole intent of the project. I am going to post electronic results from both systems on the same truck. So there will be no difference in vehicles, the ET's will show corrected times based on any difference in weather.

I honestly have no idea how they are going to stack up. IF Vector can get close to ADM's time that will be saying something in itself. The ADM tune had no torque management and wasn't pulling timing because of it. Since Vector says they leave a safe amount of torque management in their tunes, they are going to have to make it up on shear engine tuning.

I wish I had done a little more testing before I pulled the ADM CAI. I could have put all the torque management back to stock and tested the truck to see how much (if any) the truck picked up without the added advantage of no TM.

[JohnnyZ28]

I think you missed the whole intent of the project. I am going to post electronic results from both systems on the same truck. So there will be no difference in vehicles, the ET's will show corrected times based on any difference in weather.

I honestly have no idea how they are going to stack up. IF Vector can get close to ADM's time that will be saying something in itself. The ADM tune had no torque management and wasn't pulling timing because of it. Since Vector says they leave a safe amount of torque management in their tunes, they are going to have to make it up on shear engine tuning.

I wish I had done a little more testing before I pulled the ADM CAI. I could have put all the torque management back to stock and tested the truck to see how much (if any) the truck picked up without the added advantage of no TM.

Whoops, my bad!

I guess there will still be many variables. Different dynos, different days, different track prep, different vehicles weights, etc. And, how many people ONLY have a CAI and Tune? How much data will really be there?

You have to count me out... as I am going with forced induction. My gaines from a tune would be far more than an NA motor.

[rrmccabe]

Whoops, my bad!

I guess there will still be many variables. Different dynos, different days, different track prep, different vehicles weights, etc. And, how many people ONLY have a CAI and Tune? How much data will really be there?

You have to count me out... as I am going with forced induction. My gaines from a tune would be far more than an NA motor.

No dyno, strictly ET results. The results will be corrected to compensate for weather. Weights are identical within 50#s because of fuel difference.

How many people have ONLY CAI and Tune? Well.. Most of them.

The only variable is going to be ADM vs Vector.. You can read about it on the site Shootout here (http://www.***********/rich)

[Nukedog]

ET's will show corrected times

That is useless information... Proven many times by drag racers for many years... We do not live in a "corrected" world...

[rrmccabe]

Well short of taking two identical TBSS's to the strip. One with Vector, one with ADM and running them and then switching the tunes and CAI's between trucks and running again, you wont get anything closer than what I am doing.

Besides, weather conditions this coming week are very similar to my ADM test.

So it will be a apples to apples test.

[JohnnyZ28]

No dyno, strictly ET results. The results will be corrected to compensate for weather. Weights are identical within 50#s because of fuel difference.

How many people have ONLY CAI and Tune? Well.. Most of them.

The only variable is going to be ADM vs Vector.. You can read about it on the site Shootout here (http://www.***********/rich)

There is about a 200lb difference between the 2WD and the AWD trucks. Also, I have removed the spare tire, spare jack, the accessory tray, and all equipment involved with lowering the spare down. I have dropped about 150lbs so far. That makes my truck about 50lbs more than a 2WD truck...

Also, some vehicles have navigation, rear DVD, etc. and there are many other factors. Fuel weighs about 8lbs per gallon and we have a 21 gallon tank. That means someone can have between 8lbs and 168lbs worth of fuel.

Those are all variables to consider. :)

[treyster]

I think it's a great idea to try to compare tunes from different companies and see what results you get. Yes there are a few variables, but it seems to be the closest comparision I've run across. I've been waiting to decide on what tune to use and what other mods I want to make and this may help me out. I've run 14.05 at 97mph bone stock AWD with a 2.10 60' at our local track. You've made mods similar to what I've been thinking of doing. Keep us posted!

[rrmccabe]

I think it's a great idea to try to compare tunes from different companies and see what results you get. Yes there are a few variables, but it seems to be the closest comparision I've run across. I've been waiting to decide on what tune to use and what other mods I want to make and this may help me out. I've run 14.05 at 97mph bone stock AWD with a 2.10 60' at our local track. You've made mods similar to what I've been thinking of doing. Keep us posted!

Treyster, what makes it even better for you is our Stock times are about the same ! You are slightly quicker, but not by much. If you check out the Shootout site and click results and compare you can see the stock results.

[TrailblazerSS]

Back in January I made back to back visits to the track, before /after the Vector tune.

Before the vector tune: 13.988 @ 97.5

After the Vector tune: 13.519 @ 100.5

Here are the original threads with details about track conditions etc.

Before Tune Thread (http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=3768)
After Tune Thread (http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=3975)

That's about as good a camaprision as possible. I was real pessismistic about the tune being THAT GOOD...

[rrmccabe]

Back in January I made back to back visits to the track, before /after the Vector tune.

Before the vector tune: 13.988 @ 97.5

After the Vector tune: 13.519 @ 100.5

Here are the original threads with details about track conditions etc.

Before Tune Thread (http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=3768)
After Tune Thread (http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=3975)

That's about as good a camaprision as possible. I was real pessismistic about the tune being THAT GOOD...


Good times. I haven't seen -DA numbers yet and that should help. You are not running a CAI are you? Just filter and tune?

My goal all along has been breaking the 13.5 mark. See what vector pulls off next week :yes:

[TrailblazerSS]

That was back in January. Now I'm running CAI, Headers, HSRK, etc.

In the Yexas heat it last ran 13.7. Waitn for January....

[JohnnyZ28]

My goal is to break 13.5 with my Maggie. :sleepy:

[2002SLT]

My goal is to break 13.5 with my Maggie. :sleepy:

:rotfl: Good one!

[vetruck]

I think you missed the whole intent of the project. I am going to post electronic results from both systems on the same truck. So there will be no difference in vehicles, the ET's will show corrected times based on any difference in weather.

I honestly have no idea how they are going to stack up. IF Vector can get close to ADM's time that will be saying something in itself. The ADM tune had no torque management and wasn't pulling timing because of it. Since Vector says they leave a safe amount of torque management in their tunes, they are going to have to make it up on shear engine tuning.

I wish I had done a little more testing before I pulled the ADM CAI. I could have put all the torque management back to stock and tested the truck to see how much (if any) the truck picked up without the added advantage of no TM.

I didn't know ADM took out all the TM. I'm hoping to order all my stuff from them today but I thought they left a safe amt. in there like Vector does. I had the 0 TM with the Predator and it is quicker like that but it doesn't exactly feel good on the tranny. I don't have time to worry about replacing the tranny.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your results and thankyou for taking the time to do it.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

"I didn't know ADM took out all the TM."

It is not standard practice,only a chosen few.

Feel free to call me anytime,we do custom 1 of tunes also!

[rrmccabe]

Well you did on all five of mine. Any special reason or just having mouse troubles those days?

How about TXSS tune? You told me his got wrote at the same time? Should he send his back? I dont think he really wants to run around without TM.

Honestly, I find myself wondering if everyone with a ADM tune took a look on HPtuners or similar how many will find that the gains come from no torque managament.

VEtruck just take it under advisement.

I really have no idea Andy. I know you turned my 14.1 second truck into a 13.67 truck but I know for sure it was at least partly because you tooks the TM out.

The Shootout next week will show I guess.

I might talk to Chris and see if I can get a PCM tune with normal TM and one with none. Just so I can make a run with no TM and see how much difference that makes.

[SSLT]

I started out with a Diablo tune and there was no torque management. I was unsatisfied so then got the ADM tune. Some of the TM is definately back. I don't have hptuners or other software, but I know it's there.

[rrmccabe]

Thats good. Torque Management is our friend on these heavy trucks :)

I am guessing it ran better with ADM too. I miss that 1/2 second in the quarter difference !

[John Skiba]

I might talk to Chris and see if I can get a PCM tune with normal TM and one with none. Just so I can make a run with no TM and see how much difference that makes.

rrmccabe - Why didn't you just put torque management back in yourself? You obviously have the tool(s) (HPTuners) to do it so you could of added it back in easy. If it was me and I was that concerned about it, I would of added it back in and programmed the PCM. Hell, if you can do screen captures and post them, then flashing the PCM is childs play.
Sheesh, you HAVE the ability to do it in a little over 30 seconds of flashing the PCM yourself at the track and you need to get dual PCMs? :crazy:

[rrmccabe]

rrmccabe - Why didn't you just put torque management back in yourself? You obviously have the tool(s) (HPTuners) to do it so you could of added it back in easy. If it was me and I was that concerned about it, I would of added it back in and programmed the PCM. Hell, if you can do screen captures and post them, then flashing the PCM is childs play.
Sheesh, you HAVE the ability to do it in a little over 30 seconds of flashing the PCM yourself at the track and you need to get dual PCMs? :crazy:

There was more wrong than just TM. Had serious detonation problems as well. Otherwise, yes I could have done that easy. Is pretty easy to do a copy difference in HPtuners.

Regarding dual PCM's as far as I know the Vector tune is locked. Thus the reason for the dual PCM comment.

I will have no way to flash the PCM. See what I mean?

I am only curious about the performance difference between TM and no TM. Might be nil.

Rich

[Silver06SS]

Ask Vector not to lock your pcm....it's yours, not his. He's basically forcing you to return to him for business if you ever upgrade when you don't need to b/c of HPTuners. If he insists on locking it, I'd look elsewhere....really though, there are only so many things he can adjust in the pcm....I think it was him that said changing the fan settings to discrete(for e-fans) would still throw codes, which it doesn't.


I'd work off the ADM tune by adjusting it with HPTuners yourself. You can get a copy of a stock tune off HPTuners website, there are a few uploaded. See what they adjusted and work the same way, maybe not as much timing if you're pinging.

[rrmccabe]

Yea I have a stock tune in it now that I got from the HP tuners site. All I did was copy Andys E-Fan stuff (which rocks) over to the stock tune.

I just was not ready to dive into that much of a project right now. Tuning is new and I want to monitor, read and learn for a while.

I would just like to have a 13.5 second truck now without detonation :)

I will get there, just not ready right now.

[John Skiba]

I am only curious about the performance difference between TM and no TM. Might be nil.

NO.....

[rrmccabe]

Guess we will see :)

Only make sense, anytime you pull timing even for a split second it has to slow you down.

I would like to make a couple runs. Partial TM vs no TM. Not something I would want to run all the time with this thing.

Was looking at the 0-100 times tonight between stock and ADM tune. Over 1 1/2 seconds !

[John Skiba]

How are you planning on making a direct comparion? I mean, what are you doing to make sure traction (or lack of) isn't a factor for a non TM tune, etc?

A 1000hp trailblazer SS will be as quick (ET as stock one if the vehicle is identical (wheels, suspension,etc).... one will just get there leaving two very nice and long strips.

[John Skiba]

I would like to make a couple runs. Partial TM vs no TM.

Do it already. You HAVE the means... HPT

[rrmccabe]

How are you planning on making a direct comparion? I mean, what are you doing to make sure traction (or lack of) isn't a factor for a non TM tune, etc?

A 1000hp trailblazer SS will be as quick (ET as stock one if the vehicle is identical (wheels, suspension,etc).... one will just get there leaving two very nice and long strips.

Its AWD. It doesnt spin. I am ASSUMING it wont spin with Vector either.

As far as testing with the Hptuner with TM on and OFF. I guess I could on a stock tune. Never really thought about it. Except, I opted for the Enhanced I/O and sent it back to Keith last week. have not got the new one yet.

[blautens]

I have posted my info on a website click here (http://www.***********/rich) and will continue to post data as the results from the Vector product are added. This includes electronic results including tuner scan logs and ET results.


Nicely designed site and no small effort, both in research and maintenance. Very appealing. Thanks.

[SS_bnoon_SS]

Nicely designed site and no small effort, both in research and maintenance. Very appealing. Thanks.

I agree. Very nice site design and product eval. Might have to do something similar with my Silverado SS pages... :undecided

I don't understand the fear of removing TQ Management out of a nearly stock vehicle that doesn't do any towing however. If you were doing some serious bolt ons I could understand keeping some, but all it does is slow you down on a rather stock vehicle. I've had 0 TM in my Silverado for over a year and have no issues, verified with a trans oil evaluation...

[rrmccabe]

Hey Brad, how are ya?

Thank guys on the site. It should be informative.

As far as the torque management "issue". I can't prove or disprove the merits of having it. I just know that I have not ran across a professional tuner that says its OK to run without it on one of these trucks.

So since I am not qualified to say, I am going to leave what is considered a safe amount of TM in it and tweak all other things.

Rich

[VTODD]

Hey Brad, how are ya?

Thank guys on the site. It should be informative.

As far as the torque management "issue". I can't prove or disprove the merits of having it. I just know that I have not ran across a professional tuner that says its OK to run without it on one of these trucks.

So since I am not qualified to say, I am going to leave what is considered a safe amount of TM in it and tweak all other things.

Rich

I have absolutley no TM in my cammed SS from Speed Inc. Nearly 4k miles with plenty of hard runs with no problems to speak of. Not saying there won't be, but I do intend on building my tranny sooner than later anyways. When asked by me how often and what experiences they have with removing TM, I was told by Speed Inc that TM was virtually eliminated in most every vehicle that is tuned by them and they haven't had a problem directly related to it yet. Shifts so nicely without TM. I love a little bang. On my Silverado SS, I had all the TM taken out of it as well by PCM4LESS, (at my request) and I had zero problems with it for the 2 years I left it like that.

Todd

[SS_bnoon_SS]

Hey Brad, how are ya?

Thank guys on the site. It should be informative.

As far as the torque management "issue". I can't prove or disprove the merits of having it. I just know that I have not ran across a professional tuner that says its OK to run without it on one of these trucks.

So since I am not qualified to say, I am going to leave what is considered a safe amount of TM in it and tweak all other things.

Rich

If nobody knows if it's safe to remove it all, how can anyone determine what is "safe"? I know of a ton of Silverado SS's are running without TM and we're heavier than a TBSS by easily a couple hundred pounds and have peak TQ at a lower RPM than the LS2's do (though it is 25 ft lb less than the LS2). What's safe?

I personally could care less if this trans lasts less than 100,000 miles. I'll blame it on GM for using a trans that's been weak since it first came out as the 700R4... instead of using parts that are up to the task, they program in friggin abuse mode crap... what a crock!

[GTPprix]

Anyone who tells you it's ok to remove TM on an AWD TBSS is well, you know..

I saw these things fail left and right during validation before production while the brand team tried to squeak a little more ET out of it to compete with the SRT8. TM is not there because its fun to slow the customer down, its there to keep the driveline intact. As I've told you guys before the energy from the 1-2 upsift that can be aborbed by tirespin on the 2WD makes it was back to the 2-4 band/apply pin and other tranny parts.

This is best evidenced simply by looking at people with trans problems here and on other boards because nine times out of ten its a AWD, this is the reason for that ;) 2WD guys can probably squeek away at stock power with no TM with no problem, but if you start turning the wick up you run into similar issues :(

[sslowered]

Hey Brad, how are ya?

Thank guys on the site. It should be informative.

As far as the torque management "issue". I can't prove or disprove the merits of having it. I just know that I have not ran across a professional tuner that says its OK to run without it on one of these trucks.

So since I am not qualified to say, I am going to leave what is considered a safe amount of TM in it and tweak all other things.

Rich


I wanted to say thanks for doing this comparison and you have a great site with a lot of time and money in it (it looks that way anyway).

I have had my SS for 2 weeks now and, about to buy a tune and CAI. I have been wondering about everything you are talking about and plan on waiting for your results before I purchase anything. :undecided

Thanks again for the comparison, and I just added your site to my favorites!! :yes:

[SS_bnoon_SS]

TM is not there because its fun to slow the customer down, its there to keep the driveline intact.

It's there because GM is to cheap to engineer a transmission that can take the power that their precious LS engines can make. Heck, it couldn't take the power of the LT1/4 engines, or the TPI engines before that. It did get better through the years, but only from bandaid fixes that still aren't good enough. :x

[rrmccabe]

It's there because GM is to cheap to engineer a transmission that can take the power that their precious LS engines can make. :x

No one is going to argue that :)

But I think I will leave some in just to be safe !

I will give you a call next week and see what your schedule is. If you want you can take the SS out to 63rd again and try out a Vector tuned truck :crazy: Let you try it before I "yank" it !

Rich

[mick]

It's all about the DOLLAR. GM wants a "Performance Vehicle" like the old days but is not willing to give you something you can break and then hold them accountable for. They have to "compete" with the SRT-8 and ? but don't want to give you the full set up for it. When I bought my TB SS the finance kid said "We're GM, one of the big 3 and we don't compete with Dodge" to which I replied: "Today you do!" Dodge had offered me 0% on a new Hemi P/U which I was trading in as well. I've seen a couple local SRT8 Magnums and 300Cs which are looking pretty fast. GM better start listening!
Mick
stock 06 SS 2WD

[SS_bnoon_SS]

No one is going to argue that :)

But I think I will leave some in just to be safe !

I will give you a call next week and see what your schedule is. If you want you can take the SS out to 63rd again and try out a Vector tuned truck :crazy: Let you try it before I "yank" it !

Rich

I say we grab a friend to hold a camera as we, uh... drive side by side quickly... :undecided :yes:

[Fishhunter911]

I say we grab a friend to hold a camera as we, uh... drive side by side quickly... :undecided :yes:

just a little sunday drive eh???;)

[rrmccabe]

Haha, OK we can do that.

Tomorrow, I think I am going to put it on the rack and get the wideband bung welded in.

Next week is Vector testing and datalogging for the shootout and then the week after is Yank TC time :)

[Fishhunter911]

Haha, OK we can do that.

Tomorrow, I think I am going to put it on the rack and get the wideband bung welded in.

Next week is Vector testing and datalogging for the shootout and then the week after is Yank TC time :)

Looking forward to your results!!

[rrmccabe]

Looking forward to your results!!

Geez Brad I think a moderator has spoken. Will have to see what we can do. Literally :x

[Fishhunter911]

Geez Brad I think a moderator has spoken. Will have to see what we can do. Literally :x

what you talkin bout willis???

[rrmccabe]

what you talkin bout willis???
About looking forward to results :x :x :x

[Fishhunter911]

aaaaahhhhh I see, I think:undecided

[vetruck]

. If you want you can take the SS out to 63rd again and try out a Vector tuned truck :crazy: Let you try it before I "yank" it !

Rich

Are you saying the Vector tuned truck is noticeably quicker on the butt dyno? You thinking better than a 13.6 out of it now?

[rrmccabe]

Are you saying the Vector tuned truck is noticeably quicker on the butt dyno? You thinking better than a 13.6 out of it now?

I have no way of knowing. Vector tunes may be great or may be crap !

I wont know for about 2 more days. Right now I am back to stock. But the results wont be just from the "butt dyno" they will be fully datalogged with HP tuners and recorded with the G-Tech. I will put side charts on the site showing the ADM vs. Vector.

Currently, the ADM complete package has a best of 13.6x in the 1/4. I thought that was pretty good. Vector might not be able to touch that. Only time will tell.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Can you please do charts stock for us first.

Timing ,A/F,Knock Retard,Times, etc.....Just like You did with my tune and Intake.You have to of been datalogging this recently right.

I feel it should be a 100 percent 3 way comparison.

Just a thought Rich

[rrmccabe]

Yes, that would be a good idea.

BTW, I am missing having a tuned truck :crazy:

[vetruck]

Yes, that would be a good idea.

BTW, I am missing having a tuned truck :crazy:

Why would you be missing a tune that was causing detonation and pinging and why would you have run what you did if it was detonating and pulling timing. Wouldn't the knock sensors have been pulling gobs of timing?

[rrmccabe]

Well I miss it because it was FUN !

The knock sensors were pulling timing but not that much because the tables were limited to how much could pull. Knock sensors only work if the program/tune can do something about it.

I am not saying I liked having a truck with audible detonation. I just liked having one with shifts that were not "confused" (as many have said). Not to mention it was about 5/10 quicker threw the qtr.

So there are a lot of things to miss !

[rrmccabe]

Sorry for delay on getting this posted. Just got the truck back from the shop. Had a leaking front seal and dealer had to replace the entire front carrier !

So as soon as I get this thing back together will have some results !

[rrmccabe]

Boys we have a new player !

http://www.***********/rich/site_images/bullet.jpgTune Time Performance has stepped up to the plate (throttle body plate that is) and will be part of the Ultimate Shootout.

So not only are you going to see results from Vector and ADM but Tune Time will showing their stuff with a tune they have spec'd using the well respected Westers Garage tune.

Vector Motorsports delivery should start showing up tomorrow and Tune Times shortly after. http://www.***********/rich/site_images/bullet.jpg



Click the signature link below to be taken there.

Rich

[vetruck]

Seems like this is starting to turn into something. Will make for some interesting reading :yes:

[tbssny]

Seems like this is starting to turn into something. Will make for some interesting reading :yes:

:iagree: all the heavy hitters are in the building/or soon to be :woohoo:

[thaar]

Looking forward to the new results. Good work thus far. http://64.91.229.147/usa/images/smilies/biggthumpup.gif

[AJSZR2326]

interesting, but with only one result ? ,thats incomplete:sleepy: how does adm ,westers, & tune time's tunes work with nitrous? can you run a 75 shot on their tunes with no other mods?i'm not biased but obviously what i have works and has been for several months with no problems. do all of the vendors support the add ons? thx ajs

[rrmccabe]

interesting, but with only one result ? ,thats incomplete:sleepy: how does adm ,westers, & tune time's tunes work with nitrous? can you run a 75 shot on their tunes with no other mods?i'm not biased but obviously what i have works and has been for several months with no problems. do all of the vendors support the add ons? thx ajs

Only one result because the Vector stuff is not scheduled to arrive until today and tomorrow. The Tune Time (westers) will be here Monday or Tuesday.

I need to get a crank relearn done for both modules (Just found out the HPtuners utility does not work) and then we will be flying.

Vectors results should be compiled this weekend.

After that one of the vendors can claim this...

http://www.***********/rich/site_images/winner.gif







.

[ScarabEpic22]

Cant wait to see the info man.:)

[rrmccabe]

Cant wait to see the info man.:)

Well the Vector tune is here, installed, crank relearned and running.

The CAI should be here tomorrow.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Dashhawk/crank relearned - :undecided

[rrmccabe]

Dashhawk/crank relearned - :undecided


Dealer. DashHawk has not released this functionality yet and HPtuners does not work.

[TuneTimePerformance]

FYI anyone with the snap-on Solus or Modis can do the Crank Relearn . We have both and they both work for this .

[rrmccabe]

Why dont you hand deliver your tune next week and you can do it for me !

Rich

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Good to know there are choices.


But I will stick with the Tech 2.:yes:

[TuneTimePerformance]

Good to know there are choices.


But I will stick with the Tech 2.:yes: Yeh we have one two but I haven't used it since the Solus or Modus .

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Hey Rich

It has been almost a day without any news on ther Intake and Tune,

How is it?

The forum members and I sure are anxious to see how it's running.

[rrmccabe]

Hey Rich

It has been almost a day without any news on ther Intake and Tune,

How is it?

The forum members and I sure are anxious to see how it's running.

Hi Andy,

Just got the CAI installed about an hour ago and its too late to run now. I am still liking your CAI design as far as fit, finish and assembly :cool:

I dont know the outcome of the performance yet. I will say the vector intake is louder than yours for whatever reason.


Will keep you posted.

Rich

[PEDRO]

Hi Andy,

Just got the CAI installed about an hour ago and its too late to run now. I am still liking your CAI design as far as fit, finish and assembly :cool:

I dont know the outcome of the performance yet. I will say the vector intake is louder than yours for whatever reason.


Will keep you posted.

Rich

Do ya think Vector is louder cause it is in smaller diameter to teh 4inch?

[rrmccabe]

Do ya think Vector is louder cause it is in smaller diameter to teh 4inch?

I have no idea. But in my opinion its in the verge of being obnoxious.

The ADM made noise at WOT. This one seems to make noise at even 1/4 throttle.

Rich

[rrmccabe]

Weather has not been overly cooperative to make the Vector test runs.

Raining today but did get to drive the truck. Seems to pull really hard when you romp down on it from a roll.

Since Vector locks their tunes (so does Westers) I cant look inside to see if torque management has been removed but you can tell by looking at the DashHawk or in my case today HPtuners.

I thought some of you might be interested to see what Torque management really is. This is a pretty good chart that I pulled today from a full throttle run.

The lavender colored line is throttle position (ETC). As you can see I romped it and held it wide open until I let off. The red line is RPM that peaks being at 6500. The yellow line is speed (not going to divulge how fast) and the white line is timing. At max I was pulling about 23 degrees of timing if I remember correctly.

At tip in (throttle) you can see a big dip in timing (10 degrees) right after the rise in throttle position. You can also see a dip just before 2nd gear starts to pull as well as at 3rd gear. Each little dip represents the engines torque management to protect the drive train.

Anyway, there has been a lot of talk about TM, but don't think its ever been shown like this. This chart clearly shows Vector Maintains a fair amount of TM.


http://www.***********/rich/tm.jpg

[vetruck]

So is the graph of a Vector tuned run, you said you had trouble doing any tests with the Vector equipment but that the graph shows that Vector retains TM? Looks good though, gives a good visual of what the TM is actually doing.

[rrmccabe]

So is the graph of a Vector tuned run, you said you had trouble doing any tests with the Vector equipment but that the graph shows that Vector retains TM? Looks good though, gives a good visual of what the TM is actually doing.

Yes, thats a vector graph. Not a full run. As I said its raining and the deer are thick around here lately. I am thinking tangling with one of those 4 legged creatures at 102 MPH might not be fun.

Have not looked at weather but was kinda nice this AM and sunny. Temps in 40's which is what I made all the final ADM runs at. I am anxious to see the 1/4 mile run.

At this point all I can say about Vector is it pulls hard from a roll and its LOUD.

I expect the Westers tune by tomorrow.

Rich

[matts]

very good graph to illustrate TM

[Nicks07TBSS]

Looks like and sounds like hte Vector tune is a good one.. but anxiously awaiting.. Did you have any problems with this tune like your trial with ADM? And I am very curious about the Tune Time, since they are only about an hour from me. Much rather pull in, pay and go!

[rrmccabe]

Looks like and sounds like hte Vector tune is a good one.. but anxiously awaiting.. Did you have any problems with this tune like your trial with ADM? And I am very curious about the Tune Time, since they are only about an hour from me. Much rather pull in, pay and go!

Well, I do not have everything together to publish and have some testing to finish. But to answer your question, I never did hear audible ping.

Rich

[ltz03]

cool graph. this is going to be good info for everybody to see!!

[rrmccabe]

I have been debating posting this until I had full results but I have been getting hammered with PM’s and E-Mails.

http://www.***********/rich/site_images/bullet.jpgThe Shootout is currently briefly delayed !

Apparently I made a mistake during the order process with Vector.

When you place an order and check out, you are given the option of a 91 or 93 Octane tune (93 being the default). I left it at the default because I had discussed this with Chris during a couple phone conversations. So in a end I got the 93 Octane tune (just as I ordered) and I am running BP 92 Amoco Ultimate which is 1 point short...

The Vector tune was not performing as it should so I sent the modules back today (11/14). Vector was kind enough to offer to ship me another set of modules next day air but I told them I would rather send these back.

I will post all the results in the end including the "failed attempts". Until then I am just going to say the results were very similar to stock.

I will also say that I am just passing along what Vector said about the tune, results, and that the above is not necessarily my opinion. I will give my FULL opinion in the end.

Rich

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Looks like even the best of the best make mistakes :)


Hope westers sends you the 91 octane tune!

[rrmccabe]

My sheet I filled out for Westers has a note under Octane "BP 92 Octane".

So its up to them. I got a message from Lyndon yesterday saying they had some "issues" and would get the tune out ASAP.

So at this point all I can say is ADM has the best delivery and best CAI (from a build standpoint anyway).

It will be interesting around here in the next couple days.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

The datalog you posted showed a decrease in timing between shifts,do you have those numbers(the amount of timing removed at the shift point).

Also do you have them when it was stock? You will see why I am asking this later on.:)

[GTPprix]

Looks like even the best of the best make mistakes :)


What mistake? We shipped the ECM/TCM core with the 93 tune he requested 30 minutes after he ordered it. Rich didnt know that BP 92 in his area is 10% Ethanol in fact I had to call BP to triple check.

From what hes telling me our off the shelf 91 tune should be perfect out of the box but we'll see.

BTW I (or any of our DH users) can tell you exactly how much timing it pulls and just like we tell everyone 40-50% of the TM is still there, which you can see on the graph. If we were being dishonest we sure wouldnt market a tool that shows you exactly how much timing is pulled on the shifts.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Hey Rich


Thanks

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

"What mistake? We shipped the ECM/TCM core with the 93 tune he requested 30 minutes after he ordered it. Rich didnt know that BP 92 in his area is 10% Ethanol in fact I had to call BP to triple check."


Like I said even the BEST OF THE BEST make mistakes!:yes:

[GTPprix]

I think the 91 tune should be a perfect fit.

[rrmccabe]

The datalog you posted showed a decrease in timing between shifts,do you have those numbers(the amount of timing removed at the shift point).

Also do you have them when it was stock? You will see why I am asking this later on.:)

Andy, yes I have the numbers. HPtuners and DashHawk show how much timing is being pulled between shifts. I have yours as well. I will have Westers shortly.



BTW I (or any of our DH users) can tell you exactly how much timing it pulls and just like we tell everyone 40-50% of the TM is still there, which you can see on the graph. If we were being dishonest we sure wouldnt market a tool that shows you exactly how much timing is pulled on the shifts.

I agree on the DashHawk. Its a clear indication of Torque Management. I think everyone that gets a tune should have one for reasons I will post in the final review.

Some of you guys that got a tune and cant see any difference. Well I can see why !

What mistake? We shipped the ECM/TCM core with the 93 tune he requested 30 minutes after he ordered it. Rich didnt know that BP 92 in his area is 10% Ethanol in fact I had to call BP to triple check.

I was talking about the CAI and not the ECM/TCM.

And as far as 10% Ethanol I dont know what you are talking about.

And to be honest, I dont think the 91 tune would have worked either.

[GTPprix]

And as far as 10% Ethanol I dont know what you are talking about.

And to be honest, I dont think the 91 tune would have worked either.

BP in Iowa is 10% ethanol, in fact in 2005 over 75% of all gas sold in Iowa had ethanol in it (cited:http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/ethanolfacts.html) This shouldnt be suprising being in the corn belt :)

The cruise cell that you somehow hit in transition from closed throttle to WOT is considerably different in the 91 octane tune and the two degree blip you had at 4000-4200 wouldnt have been an issue since there is three-four degrees less in that area.

Should be a perfect match :)

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

"Rich didnt know that BP 92 in his area is 10% Ethanol in fact I had to call BP to triple check."

Even the BEST OF THE BEST make mistakes!


That was his mistake! :undecided :yes:

Not yours:rolleyes:

[rrmccabe]

Chris,

As I have told you all along. No Ethanol. I just called the station and the owner verified there is NO Ethanol.

Rich

[GTPprix]

Well BP says all gas they distribute in Iowa is 10%, I trust the manufacturer over the station owner any day and with that other article saying 75% in 2005 it's just fuzzy thats all.

But like I said lets see how the 91 tune does, should be a perfect fit.

[rrmccabe]

Well BP says all gas they distribute in Iowa is 10%, I trust the manufacturer over the station owner any day and with that other article saying 75% in 2005 it's just fuzzy thats all.

But like I said lets see how the 91 tune does, should be a perfect fit.

OK dont trust the station owner (even though he is the oldest owner/operator in the state and knows what he is talking about) I just called the manufacturer and they said NO Ethanol in the Ultimate I purchased. The Gas Tech Line is 1-800-841-5255.

[GTPprix]

Well if you trust him thats all that matters, like I said 91 tune should be just fine; I'm just trying to help you! Being the in corn belt where 75%+ of the state had ethanol regardless if that pump didnt have it or not you would run into it eventually just glad we caught it now rather than later :)

BTW I just called that line no answer after getting through the menus :( I'd like to get to the bottom of this since the guy I talked to before wasnt at the number you gave me (he was at station support).

[Envoy Fan]

OK dont trust the station owner (even though he is the oldest owner/operator in the state and knows what he is talking about) I just called the manufacturer and they said NO Ethanol in the Ultimate I purchased. The Gas Tech Line is 1-800-841-5255.

Called the tech line to find out what was going on in my state (Ohio) They gave me local terminal manager's number. Local terminal manager says BP gas in my area has 10% ethanol in it. :mad:
Ohio does not require a sticker on the pump stating content. Actually Ohio does not have a law that guarantees pump octane to the customer. :hissy:

[vetruck]

This is something that I have been wondering about the gas I use. Would any of you guys know if Florida is using ethanol? I use Shell V-power or Chevron 93 and have had no problems yet but I am interested and it would help Andy dial in my tune better also. TIA.

Sorry, don't mean to get too far off topic. Still excited to see all your results from the shootout mccabe!

[rrmccabe]

The Vector 91 tune came back today.

Note: I am not going to rule out that some type of slip up was made when shipping it back from Vector though. I had to do a crank relearn on a module that has already had that done. First indication was that they might have sent back the wrong one even though it seems to be running fine.

Anyway.. Performance results are on the shootout page. You can see the results on the compare page or the best 3 runs compared to stock on each Vendors page.

Click here to jump to the compare page. (http://www.***********/rich/compare.html)

Westers tune is running behind what Tune Time said for shipping. I have a UPS tracking # from Westers and the tune should be here mid week.

Rich

[02redhawk]

Rich

In your summary chart, you should also include the amount of max KR that each tune saw, as well as the amt of TM in each tune (if known). Those two are also key aspects for performance and longevity. Good comparisons, and keep it up.

[rrmccabe]

Rich

In your summary chart, you should also include the amount of max KR that each tune saw, as well as the amt of TM in each tune (if known). Those two are also key aspects for performance and longevity. Good comparisons, and keep it up.

Probably a good idea. I will be adding some thoughts on that in the end but wouldn't hurt to add them now.

The last Vector run had basically no KR and if I remember correctly the ADM tune was between 4 and 5. I do have the logs. As far as TM, ADM has none and Vector has what appears a normal amount but slightly reduced.

[bbradyc5]

The other thing that would be nice to see specified in your chart is to call Vectors Tune "Vector 91 Oct". One, so that people realize they need to specify what tune they want, and two, hopefully in the future you can expand this to somehow test the "Vector 93 Oct" tune using sufficient octane rated gas (or octane booster). You have to remember that people of all knowledge levels will look at this chart and may not understand the small details that go along with this.

[BLK60SS]

The other thing that would be nice to see specified in your chart is to call Vectors Tune "Vector 91 Oct". One, so that people realize they need to specify what tune they want, and two, hopefully in the future you can expand this to somehow test the "Vector 93 Oct" tune using sufficient octane rated gas (or octane booster). You have to remember that people of all knowledge levels will look at this chart and may not understand the small details that go along with this.

Good idea. :yes:

[02redhawk]

The other thing that would be nice to see specified in your chart is to call Vectors Tune "Vector 91 Oct". One, so that people realize they need to specify what tune they want, and two, hopefully in the future you can expand this to somehow test the "Vector 93 Oct" tune using sufficient octane rated gas (or octane booster). You have to remember that people of all knowledge levels will look at this chart and may not understand the small details that go along with this.


Good ideas! A li'l splash of Xylene and then re-run the VMS 93-oct tune. Curious to see how the extra timing will change the performance, vs. the 91-oct tune - since the two likely have the same TM and thus have a solid apples-apples comparison.

[rrmccabe]

The other thing that would be nice to see specified in your chart is to call Vectors Tune "Vector 91 Oct". One, so that people realize they need to specify what tune they want, and two, hopefully in the future you can expand this to somehow test the "Vector 93 Oct" tune using sufficient octane rated gas (or octane booster). You have to remember that people of all knowledge levels will look at this chart and may not understand the small details that go along with this.

Yea, I am not sure I can get that octane. The 93 tune was very close and I think if Vector would have massaged the tables a little down low it might have ran like a raped ape ! But they wanted to send "off the shelf" tunes which is what its all about.

Its not 100% fair because ADM does not lock their tune and took 5 shots at it with HPtuners (never improving). Vector does not have the luxury or chooses not to for reasons I FULLY understand.

02Redhawk, your comment about KR and TM was a great one. I went back and looked at all logs and found something very interesting. I am not even going to guess as to why this is.

http://www.***********/rich/kr_compare.jpg

http://www.***********/rich/kr_compare2.jpg

The above shows the three tunes including stock. You can see the timing at idle and at tip in and the timing before and after 1st and 2nd gear shifts. I was pulling more timing after shifts on the stock tune than before.

I really think the 93 tune has HUGE potential !

[rrmccabe]

Just a FYI. The Shootout site has moved to www.ss-shootout.com (http://www.ss-shootout.com/)

Rich

[vetruck]

:undecided Why does it look like the Vector tune has more TM than stock in the graph? At the beginning, the ADM drops like the other two but obviously remains fairly constant afterwards but the Vector is dropping 3 pts. below stock?

[rrmccabe]

Good question.

The timing retard on launch is a different parameter according to what Vector told me. I think its 10 degrees on the stock tune and I dont think Vector or Andy touch that.

But you are right, for whatever reason the timing falls off more than stock on each shift with the Vector tune. Probably why the Vector performance was so bad. I would have expected the Vector to be 1/2 way between the stock and ADM.


Rich

[vetruck]

Yeah thats what I was thinking so I had to ask. I think Chris once said that they retain ~48% TM, give or take a few %'s. I'll be having Andy take a little more out of mine (~60%) but not much, I wanna be fast but safe too :yes: , if thats possible :confused: Keep up the good work :)

[Nicks07TBSS]

Rich.. are you saying the Vector Tune was not as good as the ADM tune? What about the pinging/detonation issues? I am so freaking confused now. I got a bunch of PM's saying their Vector tune was incredible .. and my CC is in my hand while my other hand is on the Vector site ready to click PURCHASE.. Now I see this and it has me backing off again... :confused: :worried:

[rrmccabe]

Nick,

The ADM tune had detonation and you cant live with that. Unless you can get andy to guarantee you he is going to send you a tune that wont do it. And one that has TM left in it. I will say that the ADM instake is a LOT better built than the Vector.

The Vector tune althought it felt strong and sounded stronger because of their loud CAI was only .09 faster through the qtr. It might pull harder from a roll and it does shift better and a lot of other things. But from a dig it was not impressive. No way worth the money.

The Westers tune was logged in by UPS today here in Des Moines and will be out for delivery tomorrow. You might consider waiting for those results.

Here is a chart of the results with corrected ET's. http://www.ss-shootout.com/site_images/Results.pdf

Rich

[AlvinPCMforless]

I honestly do not think this will be a accurate test for the 2/3 vendors. Each truck is a bit different and what might totally kick butt yours might do OK for someone else. Theres also alot that goes into a tune including part throttle stuff that you can't just judge by G-tech times.

I think a true gauge on whose tune is the best is the number of satisfied customers they have and the referrals they do.

[rrmccabe]

I honestly do not think this will be a accurate test for the 2/3 vendors. Each truck is a bit different and what might totally kick butt yours might do OK for someone else. Theres also alot that goes into a tune including part throttle stuff that you can't just judge by G-tech times.

I think a true gauge on whose tune is the best is the number of satisfied customers they have and the referrals they do.

Maybe. But its about as close as you can get.

If you follow your theory and do a search for customers that went to the track before and after you will find a fair amount of complaints of little or no gains. Just leave this shootout out of the equation and see if one vendor has more issues than others.

[Nicks07TBSS]

My head hurts! :(

Ok.. will wait on the Wester's Tune, but haven't heard much good from anyone on that tune yet... otherwise I would have drove to Tune Time a while back to get it done in person...

So far all I get from this is that no tune is realy that good.. and the CAI from ADM is the better available CAI on the market right now... :D

By the way Rich... thank you for doing all this for us .. its good to know this stuff.. especially for us newbies!

[rrmccabe]

My head hurts! :(

Ok.. will wait on the Wester's Tune, but haven't heard much good from anyone on that tune yet... otherwise I would have drove to Tune Time a while back to get it done in person...

So far all I get from this is that no tune is realy that good.. and the CAI from ADM is the better available CAI on the market right now... :D

By the way Rich... thank you for doing all this for us .. its good to know this stuff.. especially for us newbies!

Well there is nothing wrong with Vectors tune. It does pull harder once rolling, shift better, etc, etc. But I am looking for straight line performance gains from a stop light. Its just not doing it for me.

As far as CAI's as I said on the shootout site. "It probably doesn't matter". The Vector intake is probably good enough. Its just not as hi-tech as the ADM intake. The Vector intake is a bunch of couplers and two pieces of tube. Just did not like how it went together and dont like how the last peice is cocked into the filter at and angle. No, it doesn't leak but its not really engineered properly either. That kind of stuff matters to me.

I have not heard anything bad about "Westers" ever. I bought it from Tune Time because they had the best deal with a Grand Opening Special.

So tomorrow night you will see results from the Westers tune online. 1/4 mile ET, Torque management, etc.

Rich

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

"I honestly do not think this will be a accurate test for the 2/3 vendors. Each truck is a bit different and what might totally kick butt yours might do OK for someone else. Theres also alot that goes into a tune including part throttle stuff that you can't just judge by G-tech times.

I think a true gauge on whose tune is the best is the number of satisfied customers they have and the referrals they do."


Yeah Alvin you right .

Do members really think all of our customers are unhappy!The answer is no-Rich just seems to be the only one since he had a detonation and tm problem.When I sent him a calibration with less timing he told me it was considerably slower from what I remember,well that will be obvious since he cannot run the same timing with the fuel he is stuck getting.I believe vector sent a calibration with to much timing also but I have not seen any data on that one.I am curious how much timing has been added to the new vector cal ov er stock if any?

I have many customers that are not on this site that I co-ordinate with tuning on a weekly basis,they have all my products and have outstanding results,their tunes are tweeked specific to their trucks and their state they live in.Rich could be one of those but chose not to go any further with us and that is fine.I have learned(known for a long time now) that bad press can also be good press.

If all our customers had detonation and blown transmissions we would probably be hearing about it more,I would think!I know of a few trans failures that had other vendors calibrations,but non of ours.

[rrmccabe]

When I sent him a calibration with less timing he told me it was considerably slower from what I remember,well that will be obvious since he cannot run the same timing with the fuel he is stuck getting.


You are remembering correctly. I am "stuck" with BP 92 Ultimate. So you are saying anyone that buys an ADM tune should make sure they are running higher than that?


Rich could be one of those but chose not to go any further with us and that is fine

Yes, I did not choose to go any further. I did not understand that people that bought mail order tunes from ADM were required to purchase HPtuners to make sure their tune was going to work for them. My mistake as I thought you could buy a professional tune and have it safely work.


If all our customers had detonation and blown transmissions we would probably be hearing about it more,I would think!I know of a few trans failures that had other vendors calibrations,but non of ours.

Maybe so. As I have said all along, I am not the expert. Its common belief that you should leave some TM in. How can I argue that until I go out and either blow it up or put 50K miles on it safely? Besides, you admitted that you sent me the wrong tune by mistake without TM... Five times.

Yeah Alvin you right .
I believe vector sent a calibration with to much timing also but I have not seen any data on that one.I am curious how much timing has been added to the new vector cal ov er stock if any?


You are welcome to see the Vector HPtuner logs if you like. I would be happy to email them to you. It appears that Vector is pulling more timing than your tune anyway. And in all honestly I think if they were pulling more timing during shifts as shown here http://www.ss-shootout.com/compare.html I think they would have had the fastest ET.

This shootout is for the majority of users. The majority of us want to buy a tune, pick up .4 on our ET and move on to the next mod. We don't want to check up on our tuner.

As I am sure you will agree I have done my share of bragging you up for your hardware. You have the BEST built CAI in the market. Your fans are awesome as well. But what you sent me for a tune did not work. I don't know if its because you have a hard time clicking the right file to email me or your tune is not end user ready. How would I know? You admittedly sent me the wrong product. As I said above FIVE times.

[AlvinPCMforless]

The tuning section of this test is almost like which taste better, Coke or Pepsi. Each truck is going to be optimal with one particular tune that a mail order is either going to get or not.

Assuming that the tunes are from legitimate, reputable, and knowledgeable tuners. I've been in the mail order tuning buisness since 01 starting on GM chip cars and I can tell you plenty of horror stories of what I've seen and had to fix.


I would say the best judge of a mail order tune is again, number of happy customers, service, contact, and finally price. I see alot of complaints on time to recieve product, or lack of communication and I really dont' know how they continue to make sales.

The opinions on the intakes I feel are pretty valid as they are pretty objective and do not fall on so many variables.

Prehaps a true test for a mail order tune would be to set up a poll asking users something like how they would rate the tune, the service, etc. If you have 10 out of 20 company X customers enjoying X product and 30 out of 40 going to Y company you have a clear winner.

[OhNoItIsA60]

Nicks07TBSS My head hurts!

Ok.. will wait on the Wester's Tune, but haven't heard much good from anyone on that tune yet... otherwise I would have drove to Tune Time a while back to get it done in person...

I have the Westers tune on my truck and cant say anything bad about this tune. Go to Tune Time and talk to Matt, I guarantee you will not be disappointed. Matt has top notch service and if you are close, have him dyno tune the truck for you. Check out tony's CAI on his truck, that Mac Intake looks awesome. Good luck with whatever you choose but dont over look Westers/Tune Time.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

The majority of us want to buy a tune, pick up .4 on our ET and move on to the next mod. We don't want to check up on our tuner.


And that my friend is why we have so many satisfied customers!

[Fishhunter911]

Ok, this thread was created to provide HIS test results. Not a thread for vendors to come in and defend their products. He is reporting his findings. He is not looking for answers. As I see it he has not bashed anyone. he has provided real world results using the same testing techniques on each one. Let not turn this thread into a pissing match.

This thread WILL NOT turn into a pissing match.

[rrmccabe]

This thread WILL NOT turn into a pissing match.

Thanks Fishy.

Guys I really am not trying to bash anyone. My experience with Chris has show he is one smart dude. I have learned a LOT from him. Andy has provided me with some of the best hardware I have seen.

I have read thread after thread about guys that have bought a tune and was not sure about it working or not. This is the reason I am doing the test.

How many of you have run a ADM tune with intake AND a Vector tune with intake AND a Westers tune? There is potential for error in any system. This has to be closer than comparing two different trucks.

Can I guarantee that my truck is odd or something wrong with it? NO.

But as you can see from my progress, I test, post the results and wait for the next tune. Just to make sure the truck is not broke, I put it back to stock with stock ECM/TCM and the stock intake and test it stock (and post the results) along with the new tune. Even though I have a chart with corrected results, you have a same day direct comparison from stock to the new tune. The only exception is ADM because of a 3 day lag while shipping modules in. Now I have three ECM/TCMs.

Heck maybe the title of this thread should be can you get a good mail order tune without being on the dyno?

There is no secret info here. Anybody that wants my Hptuners scan logs for any tune, or my G-Tech file can have it. As a matter of fact when its done, I will label them, and post them in a zip file on the site and anyone that wants them can download the entire package.

And the good news is... Mr. UPS showed up with a Westers package and STICKERS :) You have to love stickers that say objects in mirror will soon disappear.

Results later TODAY.

PS: I dont claim to be the world expert here. I just have the capability to log and post the results. So... I am open for suggestions !

[clutchNthrottle]

Quick question about your test methodology...

Since all of your testing hasn't been done back to back, due to obvious limitations, have you made any considerations to negate the effects, of various environmental conditions in which the testing was conducted, on the data your results are based upon?

You're no doubt swimming in the deeper end of the knowledge pool of these tunes than I'm currently wading in, but I was thinking the variables of temperature, humidity, bar pressure, and altitude could significantly alter the timing curves, even of the SAME tune, under differing conditions...

[rrmccabe]

have you made any considerations to negate the effects, of ...

Well I have done everything I could think of.

First of all you will find corrected times to compensate on weather here http://www.ss-shootout.com/site_images/Results.pdf

And since I know "corrected" ET could be argued, I took it a step further and before each test, I put the truck back to stock and made three test runs using the stock CAI and stock ECM/TCM tune. Then I install the intake and new ECM/TCM's and go back out and run 5 runs using the new tune. (I AM the fastest ECM/TCM changer in North America now) !!! All testing stock to new tune was done within 1 hour.

That way I always have a stock baseline to compare too. As I said, I could not do this with ADM because I did not have spare ECM's at that point. So doing a stock run an hour before adding the new "stuff" should keep the results in check incase something goes wrong.


So..... Westers has been installed.

And removed !

Something is wrong. I started it up and it idled rough. The STFTs and LTFTs were way off the chart. Did a crank relearn which did not take and was throwing a MAF code.

Called and talked to Lyndon at Westers and the only thing we could come up with was that the ECM has a factory defect and something wrong.

So stuck the stock computers back in and cleared the codes and it runs fine now.

Actually running on McCabes first HPtuners tune now. One I did all my self.

Is it faster than Vector??? haha. No :)

[VTODD]

maybe something is wrong with your truck :confused: all these tunes all performing poorly. thats a helluva coincidence. :p i think your truck is just saying it wants a dyno tune!

todd

[rrmccabe]

maybe something is wrong with your truck :confused: all these tunes all performing poorly. thats a helluva coincidence. :p i think your truck is just saying it wants a dyno tune!

todd

Haha :rolleyes:

Well Lyndon is pretty sure the ECM is defective.

Vectors tunes ran pretty well. No "audible detonation" and I think if they massaged the timing tables down on the bottom a little that 93 tune would have been a rocket.

And its not just me. I am getting PM's from other people with similar problems that are considering a switch.

Interesting stuff. Thats for sure !

[ltz03]

I was waiting on the result from lyndon's tune, i have it already and wanted to see how it was against the others!! i also have adm's intake and maf which i agree with you is real nice, kinda stealthy too....what ever the problem is with the westers tune lyndon is real good and will work it out with you. i have dealt with him ever since the tune was read for my 03

[GTPprix]

Vectors tunes ran pretty well. No "audible detonation" and I think if they massaged the timing tables down on the bottom a little that 93 tune would have been a rocket.


We can do that if you want I just figured it was a better comparison to do the off the shelf tunes. If this is a route you want to take let me know and we'll make you a custom 92 one off ECM for your truck.

BTW double check the ECM connectors and everything on the Westers tune just for safe measure, also check the MAF/connector as that can do exactly what you are describing and I'm relatively sure a crank learn is not possible if there are current ECM DTC's set (IE MAF connector loose, or dirty MAF ect). Most of the time a bench test will show you a bad ECM but some just need to be in vehicles to act up.

[rrmccabe]

We can do that if you want I just figured it was a better comparison to do the off the shelf tunes. If this is a route you want to take let me know and we'll make you a custom 92 one off file for your truck.

Yes, I know you will. You just wanted to be off the shelf and a fair comparison. You told me that up front and I appreciate that.

As I am sure you will agree your 93 tune really did not have typical detonation. My truck was just a little sensitive around 2000rpm and tripping off the KR. It was not audible and if someone did not have a DashHawk (or similar) they never would have known it.

Its also my understanding that its not just my truck. You have another user with the same issue.

Rich

[GTPprix]

Yes, I know you will. You just wanted to be off the shelf and a fair comparison. You told me that up front and I appreciate that.

As I am sure you will agree your 93 tune really did not have typical detonation. My truck was just a little sensitive around 2000rpm and tripping off the KR. It was not audible and if someone did not have a DashHawk (or similar) they never would have known it.

Its also my understanding that its not just my truck. You have another user with the same issue.

Rich

Yup which is wierd even for 92 octane its not that FAR on the edge where it should have reacted like that and after you mentioned it there is another case that sounds similar on paper(and I offered to upgrade his as well, just to check it out) So we'll see how that pans out, but we have hundreds of other customers with great results and no complaints so we just have to figure out how to help those couple customers ;)

[TonyGXP]

I want to say one thing about the shotout..

although, some trucks "may" take to a specific tune better than the other given the small changes that a tuner makes, that makes his tune "specific and unique" having all of the tests on the same truck, in the same weather, altitude, Gasoline etc. should give people a good idea of what to expect.. i know for a fact that some people have gotten the tune I have, based of of Dyno testing and have had some Detonation, it's bound to happen with the different fuels around the country, heck around one town even... If you are running a 93 octane tune and get some ****ty gas, you will get detonation, but on your next fill it may go back to being fine.. get on a dyno if possible and check your truck out, ifyou can't then get some datalogs and go that route.. I like the whole idea of the shootout, but I would've loved to see you at the track, run all 3 tunes 3 times and change the order as the sets of "3" were done to eliminate any advantage of a "cooler" run.. that would take care of the performance question...
Anyway, great thorough job on this shootout!!

[rrmccabe]

I want to say one thing about the shotout..

although, some trucks "may" take to a specific tune better than the other given the small changes that a tuner makes, that makes his tune "specific and unique" having all of the tests on the same truck, in the same weather, altitude, Gasoline etc. should give people a good idea of what to expect.. i know for a fact that some people have gotten the tune I have, based of of Dyno testing and have had some Detonation, it's bound to happen with the different fuels around the country, heck around one town even... If you are running a 93 octane tune and get some ****ty gas, you will get detonation, but on your next fill it may go back to being fine.. get on a dyno if possible and check your truck out, ifyou can't then get some datalogs and go that route.. I like the whole idea of the shootout, but I would've loved to see you at the track, run all 3 tunes 3 times and change the order as the sets of "3" were done to eliminate any advantage of a "cooler" run.. that would take care of the performance question...
Anyway, great thorough job on this shootout!!

I am not 100% sure (Vendor jump in please) but I think you need a few miles on the truck to get the fuel trims set. In my case my house and "personal testing track" are about 10 miles apart. This allows things to even out.

I am guessing, but it might be hard swapping computers at the strip and getting enough run time to get things working.

When I first called Lyndon, I said I started it up and it wont idle for $hit. He said that could be normal. haha

There is something to be said for real runs over dyno runs too. You can get real indications of timing, TM, and KR at shifts better than you can on a dyno. Better might not be the right term. lets say more realistic..

[rrmccabe]

In the interest of Shootout accuracy things are going to change a little.

Please welcome two new Shootout testers Silver_06 and TBSSNY.

I will let them say hello but just wanted to give you a heads up.

I am FIRMLY starting to believe that there is a certain amount of chance that goes along with buying a mail order tune. Based on what I have learned I am confident in saying there is no way I would buy a mail order tune without some way to monitor it. DashHawk, HPtuners, etc. You might have an odd truck or a totally messed up tune.

The fact of the matter is Not all tunes work !

So the focus of this Shootout will not only be about buying the best tune but also how the average (and I mean average) driver/enthusiast can make sure the tune is working.

All I can say for sure is... This is going to be very interesting.

These guys will have full access to the same tools I am using.

Welcome Silver_06 and TBSSNY.

Rich

[MyGoatBites]

This thread is a crock at this point. The only way to accurately "test" CAI's is to put them on the same truck in the same conditions, on the same dyno with their "tune" and evaluate the differences. It needs to be run by an independent tuner not associated with this forum. There is way too much stink here without any supporting evidence. Post up logged dyno runs on the same truck with their respective tunes, no more mud slinging

[rrmccabe]

This thread is a crock at this point. The only way to accurately "test" CAI's is to put them on the same truck in the same conditions, on the same dyno with their "tune" and evaluate the differences. It needs to be run by an independent tuner not associated with this forum. There is way too much stink here without any supporting evidence. Post up logged dyno runs on the same truck with their respective tunes, no more mud slinging

You are missing it. We are not going to compare truck to truck.

We are going to compare tune to tune on 3 different trucks.

No crock here :)

Besides the only dyno I care about is the asphalt dyno !

[tbssny]

As for me i Have run a vector tune from the start, the truck was 6 weeks old when i shiped out my computers. I did get them back next day as i was told. My truck was a very fast AWD at the track turning many sub 13.5 @100 + mph with just a vector tune CAI and Efans.NEVER any notice of pinging. The only ping i heard is when my engine blew as you all know the cam bolts fell out,it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TUNE just bad luck i guess. Now with the new motor i have only 50 miles on it so i think some good testing is now in order. I am always up for more speed so let the testing begin. I will try to provide the team with the most accurate information that i can.

[MyGoatBites]

There is an awful lot of mudslinging going on though. I mean is the point to show the value of the CAI's or to piss all over the vendors on here?

The asphalt dyno is completely subjective. Chances are you can't even REALLY feel the difference in a CAI. Is this the CAI shootout or a tuners challenge? I have been around LSx forums for years now. I can tell you there are very few FAIR ways to accomplish your goal. I am not trying to piss anyone off, but these vendors have a lot invested in these CAI setups. I think they deserve to get a FAIR comparison.

[John Skiba]

Well Rich, you know my answer to all this. Do your own tuning. :) As far as I'm concerned the mailorder tunes are conversative and they need to be... yes, even ADM's. You would have a heart attack if you seen the tune that works on my truck that I worked up. :p I'm not saying that any of the other tuners wouldn't give me the same gains, but they will probably leave a little on the table for the sake of worry about blowing my crap up. :)

I'm still trying to figure out how your going to make this a fair comparison. The variables are dizzing and unless you have a PCM/TCM from each tuner and swaping them out while watching for weather changes as well as the temps of your motor and tranny AT the track the same day.... I don't know.

Maybe I missed something and please don't take offense to it, but at least one, two, three or more vendors are going to get screwed by default by any "official" results... and it could ALL be due to weather condition or merely traction conditions. I just learned the hardway this past weekend how much different street and track tune results can vary despite everything else (weather, etc) seeming the same!

[rrmccabe]

There is an awful lot of mudslinging going on though. I mean is the point to show the value of the CAI's or to piss all over the vendors on here?

No its not going to turn into that because the fact of the matter is we need the vendors. I am not capable of tuning from scratch (yet). I dont think the other two testers are either. That makes us like 95% of the other people on this forum. Most are not as brave as you are when it comes to modding :)

The bulk of the users are just wanting a CAI and Tune. As I said its very clear to me that buying a tune is a shot in the dark. It might not work. I can prove that.

So I think its important at this point that we keep the slinging (as you say) off this thread and out of the Shootout.

ADM has some great products, Vector has some great products and Westers might too. I can honestly say I dont know what I am going to end up with. I might go back to ADM and work with Andy to get mine to work. I might keep my Vector and I might keep the Westers when it gets here. I just want the best tune. I dont care who it is.

I think that most the people looking for a tune feel the same way.

[MyGoatBites]

Well Rich, you know my answer to all this. Do your own tuning. :) As far as I'm concerned the mailorder tunes are conversative and they need to be... yes, even ADM's. You would have a heart attack if you seen the tune that works on my truck that I worked up. :p I'm not saying that any of the other tuners wouldn't give me the same gains, but they will probably leave a little on the table for the sake of worry about blowing my crap up. :)

I'm still trying to figure out how your going to make this a fair comparison. The variables are dizzing and unless you have a PCM/TCM from each tuner and swaping them out while watching for weather changes as well as the temps of your motor and tranny AT the track the same day.... I don't know.

Maybe I missed something and please don't take offense to it, but at least one, two, three or more vendors are going to get screwed by default by any "official" results... and it could ALL be due to weather condition or merely traction conditions. I just learned the hardway this past weekend how much different street and track tune results can vary despite everything else (weather, etc) seeming the same!

EXACTLY what I am trying to say. Well put John!

[tbssny]

Well guys after further consideration i have decided not to be part of this team.Their are so many variables in testing i dont think i am the person for the job.:cry: I think it has gotten a little out of hand and i DO NOT want my name associated with it. Sorry for the short stay but its winter here in NY and my truck is in a heated garage for the next 6 mos anyway.I will be HAPPY with my VENDOR, and continue to work with them to make MY truck as fast as possible,and share that info with you all as i have done in the past.

Thanks

Jamie

[rrmccabe]

Well Rich, you know my answer to all this. Do your own tuning. :) As far as I'm concerned the mailorder tunes are conversative and they need to be... yes, even ADM's. You would have a heart attack if you seen the tune that works on my truck that I worked up. :p I'm not saying that any of the other tuners wouldn't give me the same gains, but they will probably leave a little on the table for the sake of worry about blowing my crap up. :)

I'm still trying to figure out how your going to make this a fair comparison. The variables are dizzing and unless you have a PCM/TCM from each tuner and swaping them out while watching for weather changes as well as the temps of your motor and tranny AT the track the same day.... I don't know.

Maybe I missed something and please don't take offense to it, but at least one, two, three or more vendors are going to get screwed by default by any "official" results... and it could ALL be due to weather condition or merely traction conditions. I just learned the hardway this past weekend how much different street and track tune results can vary despite everything else (weather, etc) seeming the same!

John,

I agree 100%.

It comes back to the fact you cant expect a mail order tune to work every time. As a matter of fact I think its pretty common for them not to work at all.

I have results/logs that I can see without a doubt why the tune did not work. But there were no obvious signs from the outside.

I will tell you this.

No runs will be counted unless they are run on the same truck and the same day. Stock to Vector, Stock to ADM, Stock to whoever.

There are going to be no comparisons from my truck to TBSSNYs truck to Silver_06. Its not a fair comparison.

I think the mail order tune is way over rated as far as performance. It does do great things with the transmission and is almost worth it just for that. But as you have said, they dont always work which is the reason you tune yourself. I applaud you. Your results show that you have done well. But the fact of the matter is you are not the average Joe. Not everyone can tune.

So for those that can't its mail order tune and CAI. People have a certain level of expectation with a professional tune and really dont know to tell if its working.

Rich

[rrmccabe]

OK guys we dont want a battle.

As I said I think most of us appreciate our vendors.

So lets dont let it get out of hand on this great Forum.

Tommy can you close this thread please?

Rich