How to get to low 13's?? [Archive] - Chevy TrailBlazer, TrailBlazer SS and GMC Envoy Forum

TonyGXP

11-23-2006, 10:19 AM

speaking from experience.. CAI Tune, E-Fans, UD Pulley got me down to 13.02 ( a few other 13.0x's @105+) on the stock tires.. Are you 2WD or AWD? if you want instant satisfaction, I would do a CAI-Tune (Wester's I love mine) and a Converter (Deep Pan, Cooler, Servos) and you should have a high 12 second truck in most any conditions and if in -DA' probably closer to mid 12's.. That's a reliable daily driver that would SMOKE your WRX....and the best is with the TC in there it's insanely quick from any speed, any rpm, any gear...
PS. on pricing? I know Matt Gets $1899 (might be $1999 have to check) or so for the Vigilante (IMO and many others one of the best Converters out there) 10.5" MultiDisc, TCI Deep Pan, Stacked Plate style front oil cooler & Sonnax Servos.. That's a hell of a deal..

TuneTimePerformance

11-23-2006, 10:44 AM

rrmccabe

11-23-2006, 11:18 AM

speaking from experience.. CAI Tune, E-Fans, UD Pulley got me down to 13.02..

Tony dont get his hopes up too high. That would be an rare exception and not the norm. As a matter of fact that might be the record for tune, CAI, E-fans and UD !! I would say the norm is 1/2 second slower that that.

It seems to me that 13.6-13.7 is about average regardless of Westers, ADM or Vector.

MrPGAPro

11-23-2006, 03:19 PM

Whats "DR's" and exactly what is (does) a "converter" do?:crazy:

Remember-I jost got out of a WRX!!:confused:

MrPGAPro

11-23-2006, 03:20 PM

Its 2WD!

ltz03

11-23-2006, 05:45 PM

what about the AWD guys that are in the 12's what have you done i a looking to get there myself!!! no NOS

rrmccabe

11-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Whats "DR's" and exactly what is (does) a "converter" do?:crazy:

Remember-I jost got out of a WRX!!:confused:

DR's are Drag Radials.... Sticky tires to make you hookup.

A converter is the torque converter. By going to a higher stall speed it allows the engine to rev higher before it connects and the transmssion input staft starts to rotate. The reason you do this is to get the engine up in the power band faster.

Currently the stock converter hooks up (stall) is at about 2100. The SS does not make power until higher RPMs. So it is not putting that much power down until you get up in higher RPM range. If you get a stall converter that is 3000 to 3600 RPM (example) your engine revs up to that point and is that much closer to your peak power range. Kinda like dumping the clutch.

myknyte

11-26-2006, 08:40 PM

13 seconds? Run smaller wheels --13" :p

TonyGXP

11-26-2006, 09:17 PM

what about the AWD guys that are in the 12's what have you done i a looking to get there myself!!! no NOS

I would say AWD you will need a converter... it's already .2 slower than the 2WD's in most cases, I wish I could give you the exact formula, I can only go by what we see at Atco (& occasionally E-Town) with our Wester's/TuneTimePerformance tuned TBSS's.. Shawn has gotten his AWD CAI-Tune only down to a 13.48 @101+, figure Fans/UD pulley another .3 or so, that puts him near or at a solid 13.1x to get another .15?? that's why I say, CAI-Tune/Converter puts you at around a 12.8 or so..

Tony dont get his hopes up too high. That would be an rare exception and not the norm. As a matter of fact that might be the record for tune, CAI, E-fans and UD !! I would say the norm is 1/2 second slower that that.
It seems to me that 13.6-13.7 is about average regardless of Westers, ADM or Vector

As for me being the exception? guys running 13.3's with just CAI-Tune at other tracks... 2WD's and a driver that knows how to get the 60's can do what I do... I am sure if I went back in this weather I could squeeze a 12.9x out of my truck W/O the DR's on.. that night the headwind probably beat me out of a 13.8x, it was pretty strong..

although what do I know? I'm just a bandwagon guy, Iforce what I use on my truck on all the others here..ROTFLMFAO... ;)

rrmccabe

11-26-2006, 10:06 PM

As for me being the exception? guys running 13.3's with just CAI-Tune at other tracks... 2WD's and a driver that knows how to get the 60's can do what I do... I am sure if I went back in this weather I could squeeze a 12.9x out of my truck W/O the DR's on.. that night the headwind probably beat me out of a 13.8x, it was pretty strong..

Well, I think WE can be misleading to newbies sometimes. This thread is a classic example. The guy comes on, had a WRX and wants to get closer to that. He did not say I want to take my truck, remove the seats, windshield washer tank, jack, spare, etc.

The NORM for guys adding the above mentioned bolt ons to a truck is not going to be a 13.3 ET. Its more like 13.6. I am talking average.

We could get into the whole TM thing too. I know the Tune Time crowd is not running much if any torque management. That makes a lot of difference. I am pretty sure you are not willing to step up and tell the average Joe making a pretty stiff car payment without a lot of money to spend on a transmission to remove TM??

So honestly with normal bolt ons and safe TM you are not going to get to 13.3 without a converter unless you have a freak truck or way negative DA #s.

As it sits, I wont keep my Westers tune unless Lyndon can fix it. My TM...

Well mine actually ADVANCES the timing when it shifts into the next gear (there is a spike) instead of retarding it !

I am not against anything you are doing. But we cant say its for the average Joe :)

TonyGXP

11-26-2006, 10:32 PM

Well, I think WE can be misleading to newbies sometimes. This thread is a classic example. The guy comes on, had a WRX and wants to get closer to that. He did not say I want to take my truck, remove the seats, windshield washer tank, jack, spare, etc.

The NORM for guys adding the above mentioned bolt ons to a truck is not going to be a 13.3 ET. Its more like 13.6. I am talking average.

We could get into the whole TM thing too. I know the Tune Time crowd is not running much if any torque management. That makes a lot of difference. I am pretty sure you are not willing to step up and tell the average Joe making a pretty stiff car payment without a lot of money to spend on a transmission to remove TM??

So honestly with normal bolt ons and safe TM you are not going to get to 13.3 without a converter unless you have a freak truck or way negative DA #s.

As it sits, I wont keep my Westers tune unless Lyndon can fix it. My TM...

Well mine actually ADVANCES the timing when it shifts into the next gear (there is a spike) instead of retarding it !

I am not against anything you are doing. But we cant say its for the average Joe :)

Not hijacking this thread, but let's settle this "rumor" NO TM does NOT mean you will "blow your trans" any faster than having 100%, just ask the guys who have blown them up.. How about the SilvySS's that haven't run TM and have 60k on stock trans running low 13's and high 12's, ask Zippy about it or better yet ask them or search their forum.. Example, I run my truck at the track and otherwise hardly ever get on it, someone has 100% TM in place, no cooler, no deep pan, no servos, beats the piss out of it, who do you think will have trans problems first??
I am guilty of it sometimes myself, but stop with the "absolutes", as you have NO PROOF other than Chris Whites & others claims, as he was also the one who said "E-Fans" don't make any noticable improvement... not knocking the guy, but some take his word & others as gospel, think of it like the old "is a 160f t-stat badfor my car" debate..
I don't remove anything other than the Spare & Jack, like I have on every car I have ever ran at the track.. in fact I don't drive around with my spare as I have a repair kit and compressor in the truck anyway.. with the mods I have listed, tack on a .1 for the spare, big deal.. and to get where his WRX was, I have far surpassed it just driving to the track and running, as he could as well... I just try and ge tthe best ET out of mine for ME.. that's it, like most others here, I see no point in saying "I run my truck like I drive it on the street so it runs what it runs" that and $2 will gt you on the bus.. when we're at the track I will beat you and you will be field stripping the thing to catch me.. That's drag racing. if you want to Magazine race (Full tank, 60lbs of equip, etc.) more power to ya...

ieatglue

11-26-2006, 10:35 PM

What about that supercharger they just released for the trucks :D

TonyGXP

11-26-2006, 10:36 PM

What about that supercharger they just released for the trucks :D

more novelty, $$ better spent elsewhere, unless you have very deep pockets.. IMO, running 4-6psi is a waist of time, drop the CR and get 12 or more in there and let's make some real power...

rrmccabe

11-26-2006, 10:52 PM

Not hijacking this thread, but let's settle this "rumor" NO TM does NOT mean you will "blow your trans" any faster than having 100%, just ask the guys who have blown them up.. How about the SilvySS's that haven't run TM and have 60k on stock trans running low 13's and high 12's, ask Zippy about it or better yet ask them or search their forum.. Example, I run my truck at the track and otherwise hardly ever get on it, someone has 100% TM in place, no cooler, no deep pan, no servos, beats the piss out of it, who do you think will have trans problems first??
I am guilty of it sometimes myself, but stop with the "absolutes", as you have NO PROOF other than Chris Whites & others claims, as he was also the one who said "E-Fans" don't make any noticable improvement... not knocking the guy, but some take his word & others as gospel, think of it like the old "is a 160f t-stat badfor my car" debate..
I don't remove anything other than the Spare & Jack, like I have on every car I have ever ran at the track.. in fact I don't drive around with my spare as I have a repair kit and compressor in the truck anyway.. with the mods I have listed, tack on a .1 for the spare, big deal.. and to get where his WRX was, I have far surpassed it just driving to the track and running, as he could as well... I just try and ge tthe best ET out of mine for ME.. that's it, like most others here, I see no point in saying "I run my truck like I drive it on the street so it runs what it runs" that and $2 will gt you on the bus.. when we're at the track I will beat you and you will be field stripping the thing to catch me.. That's drag racing. if you want to Magazine race (Full tank, 60lbs of equip, etc.) more power to ya...

So step up and tell that Newbie that cant afford a failure its 100% safe to remove TM. I agree the SSS guys are getting away with it. But they are not running 450 HP tuned LS-2's either.

And if you are going to take out a tranny. Yes, I believe you will do it faster without TM. Its not gonna last LONGER thats for sure.

I am not going by anything Chris White says about tunes. I am looking at the average. The forums are full of real word results. And about the deal with e-fans. Yes, Chris said e-fans make no difference and was man enough to test it and come back within 12 hours and say he was wrong. I know, because I was the one that provoked that thread.

You used the term bandwagon a couple post ago. Well I am not on anyones bandwagon. Yet :)

I have not found a tune that works for me yet. Skiba keeps telling me to do it myself. I think he might be right. So far, Vector is the only company that has provided a safe (IMHO) tune.

Keep up the good work. I love seeing your results.

1BADSS

11-27-2006, 12:38 AM

Tony dont get his hopes up too high. That would be an rare exception and not the norm. As a matter of fact that might be the record for tune, CAI, E-fans and UD !! I would say the norm is 1/2 second slower that that.

It seems to me that 13.6-13.7 is about average regardless of Westers, ADM or Vector.

I'm running 13.5's with just a Vector Tune, CAI and HSRK. I'm AWD and no pro dragracer. So a 2WD with the same setup should be at least a 13.3 or better.

clutchNthrottle

11-27-2006, 12:48 PM

guys running 13.3's with just CAI-Tune at other tracks... 2WD's and a driver that knows how to get the 60's can do what I do...

:iagree: :weird: My time is in my sig, my mods are in my profile. All I had was a tune and an intake (pre-heat soak reduction kit too) and DA (density altitude, correction for altitude and weather) was positive too, albeit only by a couple hundred feet..

Where are you located Mr. PGA? Location matters significantly. Cool, dry, low lying tracks in NJ and MD are going to produce better times than say in the thin air of Colorado, the stickyness of Florida or in the oven of Texas...:yes:

TonyGXP

11-28-2006, 08:37 AM

Mcabe, Bandwagon was a reference to another forum where I was accused of being on one (imagine that?)..

Like Clutch said, where you live has alot to do with it,but the quickest way is do the CAI-Tune & Trans upgrade, Matt is doing a special w/a Vigilante (your choice on stall) Sonnax Servos, TCI 2qt xtra deep pan & Stacked plate style cooler for $1999 installed, $1899 for 2WD.. that plus the $349, or whatever it is for the tune & CAI another $150 or so. Add it up and you spent $2500 for a Very solid 12.xx truck 2 or AWD.. not bad, plus the fact that you would be upgrading the trans quite a bit with the stronger TC, Servos and cooling capability.. He is currently working with a Very reputable Trans company on a kit for these to improve more upon the weak parts as well as a shift kit (some like them some don't, the trans guy we use on a regular basis doesn't like them)..

rrmccabe

11-28-2006, 09:05 AM

the $349, or whatever it is for the tune & CAI

You must be buying your CAI and tunes off a street corner. I dont think any of hte real players are sell both for that money :)

TuneTimePerformance

11-28-2006, 01:36 PM

You must be buying your CAI and tunes off a street corner. I dont think any of hte real players are sell both for that money :)No we don't :D

But you still have TM in your truck [ Please don't mis-inform anyone ] you're just not seeing it on your hpt you do have 75% removed . Whoever put this into your head, "I'm going to blow my trans if I remove the TQM!" nonsense is waqisting their energy and spreading flase information. If you can tune a trans right it will last a long life with 0 TQM is it better with some in Depends on how you drive and what INFERIOR Parts some one at GM let go through there hands in QC [ in that case your trans will go no matter what] On nov 18th we had a awd truck run with tune,cai,fans,pulley run 13.47 @ 101.5 mph [ bad air day ]when every one with tune/intake where going 13.70 [bluebeast] 13.80 [Fish].

BTW you should be worried about line pressure instead of
TQM .

Back on topic we have been running trucks with these mods all over, this will get you where you want to be.

rrmccabe

11-28-2006, 01:58 PM

No we don't :D

But you still have TM in your truck [ Please don't mis-inform anyone ] you're just not seeing it on your hpt you do have 75% removed . Whoever put this into your head, "I'm going to blow my trans if I remove the TQM!" nonsense is waqisting their energy and spreading flase information. If you can tune a trans right it will last a long life with 0 TQM is it better with some in Depends on how you drive and what INFERIOR Parts some one at GM let go through there hands in QC [ in that case your trans will go no matter what] On nov 18th we had a awd truck run with tune,cai,fans,pulley run 13.47 @ 101.5 mph [ bad air day ]when every one with tune/intake where going 13.70 [bluebeast] 13.80 [Fish].

BTW you should be worried about line pressure instead of
TQM .

Back on topic we have been running trucks with these mods all over, this will get you where you want to be.

Well alrighty then. Let's not sugar coat it from here on out then.

Get off your A$$ and make mine work. You posted in another thread once that you will put your money where your mouth is. So far I have no seen it happen.

Is that clear enough?

TonyGXP

11-28-2006, 10:58 PM

You must be buying your CAI and tunes off a street corner. I dont think any of hte real players are sell both for that money :)

McCabe, do you have selective vision???

READ THIS, THE WHOLE THING...
that plus the $349, or whatever it is for the tune & CAI another $150 or so

rrmccabe

11-28-2006, 11:07 PM

McCabe, do you have selective vision???

READ THIS, THE WHOLE THING...

Nope, just didnt make sense the way you wrote it.

MrPGAPro

11-29-2006, 04:23 AM

I'm in Mississippi; dry and cold in winter, and hot and humid in the summer.

rrmccabe

11-29-2006, 09:13 AM

I'm in Mississippi; dry and cold in winter, and hot and humid in the summer.

Well you will notice a huge difference in AIR. Makes all the difference in the world. I have ran faster stock in great air (-DA numbers) than I have modded in fair condition air. Its amazing.

I am starting to think that a real cold air induction kit on one of these trucks is better than any bolt-on you can buy.

Now, just need to figure out one without really cutting up the truck to bad.

TonyGXP

11-29-2006, 09:23 AM

I'm in Mississippi; dry and cold in winter, and hot and humid in the summer.

Back to what I said earlier, you'll need a Converter with a Tune to hit your mark.. that's the easiest, most reliable way to go (meaning as close to stock as possible).. you could do a number of different things to hit a low 13 or high 12, but if you want to start out "light" that would be my suggestion.. I just installed the 3400Vig in my truck and it's almost like driving on the stock one.. I've had converters before, but this one is by the far the nicest when it comes to drivability.. When I pulled it out into the parking lot from the bay, I was like "Oh Man, this doesn't feel like a 3k+ stall, NOT AGAIN!" Boy was I wrong... regardless of what route you take, make sure you check all the sites out and ask people you believe to be truthful about their mods, should help alot..Tony

TuneTimePerformance

11-29-2006, 09:25 AM

Well alrighty then. Let's not sugar coat it from here on out then.

Get off your A$$ and make mine work. You posted in another thread once that you will put your money where your mouth is. So far I have no seen it happen.

Is that clear enough?Send it to me then ? I'm not sure I under stand what you mean ? What have you not seen happen ?

rrmccabe

11-29-2006, 09:58 AM

Send it to me then ? I'm not sure I under stand what you mean ? What have you not seen happen ?

If you would check your email, you would see I sent it to Lyndon. He is better about following up and just feel I have a better chance getting it done right if it goes back to Canada.

Yesterday you said "Please don't mis-inform anyone". Well I have no intention of doing that and I don't know all the ins and outs of the TBSS tune, but I can make some pretty honest statements based on what the tune outputs.

Yesterday you also emailed me saying and I will quote "TM pulls fuel as well as timing . I have seen the tip in KR with the HPT but not the Snap-on could have been different situation that caused it"

Pulls fuel?? Uh, I don't think so. IF GM pulled fuel I would still see it in my logs. Take a look at my fuel areas. Everything from injectors to the wideband readings. Do you see any change in fuel? NO. Can you imagine pulling fuel? Sounds like a good way to burn something down to me.

Someone is going to have to prove to me otherwise and its going to have to be someone with more tuning experience on a TBSS than you. If you are right, I guess that makes GM, Vector, ADM, HPtuners, EFI live, etc all wrong.

Compare my ignition timing below with any other tune you have seen. The dip at shifts is way early. I cant see any value in doing it there. The dotted verticle lines show where it shifts into the next gear.

It the choice of the buyer to decide if you want TM or not. I can't argue its value but I know GM put some there for a reason. It seams logical that they might have went overboard. But I have no intention of removing all of it. Longevity has more value in my application than one or two tenths through the quarter.

Link to above mention scan log image (http://www.ss-shootout.com/site_images/matt_response.jpg)

TonyGXP

11-29-2006, 10:38 PM

Longevity has more value in my application than one or two tenths through the quarter.

Man, I'll take one or two tenths any day over "longevity" something that has NOT been proven by anyone (no TM kills:rolleyes:) .. Stock trans's break all the time, does it speed up degradation? maybe, but like stated previously, many times before.. If you're a teenager taking Dad's TBSS out for a night of Ass-Whippin fun, TM is great.. for those of us responsible enough to keep our legs OUT of the gas every time we touch it, we'll take those .2 to give us the upperhand at the track over someone like you.. cause when push comes to shove, if and when you go to the track and run an SS with the same mods as you and he keeps beating your 13.xx by .2, you will be wishing you had done everything you could've to have those extra tenths.. at least that's what the 99.9% of us do when we go to the track and run, seeing how we stack up against others whether they drive TBSS's or GC SRT8's, competitive nature, if you're reading this thread, you have it..

not to start anything between tuners but if your Wester's tune was done correctly, you would've seen the difference between his TCM program as opposed to other "well known" tuners.. his program has very nice shift feel and at WOT, firm but not "Snapping" like the others.. When I first rode and DROVE another SS with a different popular tune, I couldn't believe how hard the shifts were... I thought maybe it was something this person asked for and not the norm.. well, I was wrong, cause I drove another one with it 10mos later and they were just as hard, if not harder.. that's the kind of thing that would make me nervous, not having TM removed, as the other tuner does as well, some not all... If you like Wester's tuning that's great, if you like ADM, VECTOR, Etc. great, but don't turn this into a circus please.. results at the track and the fact nobody's engine is BLOWN the hell up is a testament to all those guys... I am NO Expert in anything automotive, I can hold my own and am a quick learner (also worked in parts, Service, Tech at Dealers and ran some of them, for 8yrs before moving on) but I know a good product when i see one and have no complaints about the Wester's Tune.. none.. your shootout is losing all it's "glamour" as everyone that has their tune is happy and I doubt you'll sway many if any with just your results.. here's something you should ask all these guys and froum members (but some will shy away, understandably, but I know who some of you are;) ) How many tunes were returned and replaced by Wester's?? you'd be surprised... with my own 2 eyes and shook those peoples hands, they're real... funny how the "shootout" seems to be taking a shot at Lyndon's work, sorry if I soud defensive, I just laugh do to the way our trucks run.. Mine, Matt's, Shawn's, Eric's, Joe's, Bob's, etc. the list goes on and on.. we'll see at the track rental how the tuner's fair, i would say round one (Atco) would have to go to Wester's.. stay awake for round two....:yes:

VTODD

11-29-2006, 10:55 PM

If you would check your email, you would see I sent it to Lyndon. He is better about following up and just feel I have a better chance getting it done right if it goes back to Canada.

Yesterday you said "Please don't mis-inform anyone". Well I have no intention of doing that and I don't know all the ins and outs of the TBSS tune, but I can make some pretty honest statements based on what the tune outputs.

Yesterday you also emailed me saying and I will quote "TM pulls fuel as well as timing . I have seen the tip in KR with the HPT but not the Snap-on could have been different situation that caused it"

Pulls fuel?? Uh, I don't think so. IF GM pulled fuel I would still see it in my logs. Take a look at my fuel areas. Everything from injectors to the wideband readings. Do you see any change in fuel? NO. Can you imagine pulling fuel? Sounds like a good way to burn something down to me.

I have personally seen the dialog on a tuning interface where you are allowed to pull fuel as a TM method. It is possible. Just because your data logging doesn't show anything to that fashion, doesn't mean it can't happen or that its not happening anyways. I am another "no TM" guy, and I have been running this way for several thousand miles with zero problems, and I fully intend on continuing this. The thing that helps is me not gunning it at every stoplight or every exit like you see some teenagers doing to their daddies GTO's (from my experiences - lots of young kids driving new GTO's like maniacs around here) etc. Reason and logic comes in handy often enough, in my humble opinion.

I also agree with Tony on your shootout. I think your heart is in the right place, but you are going about it all wrong. Maybe try corresponding with other users. I think something is wrong with your truck, perhaps.

Todd

rrmccabe

11-29-2006, 11:06 PM

Funny how the "shootout" seems to be taking a shot at Lyndon's work, sorry if I soud defensive, I just laugh do to the way our trucks run......

Oh no, not by any means. Talk to Andy at ADM. He has a couple holes in him. So does Chris at Vector.

I agree, the truck feels good on the Westers Tune. It shifts great. None of the other tunes I have tried (ADM, Vector 93 or Vector 91) have shifted in the hard manner you suggested and they shift good too.

But the truck is all over the place as far as performance. It pulls KR on tip in half the time and then about 3 spots through the quarter often. I am running decent fuel and can say that Vectors 91 tune has no signs of KR.

As far as TM. Its a choice. I chose to leave some in. You can choose to take it all out. To each their own. That is why they have a check box on the tune sheet for TM. Or so I thought.

I sent it back to Lyndon and will ask him to review the sheet I sent TT. I think there is a pretty good chance it will come back OK.

As I said its all over the place because of timing issues. Heck it will run a 13.65 run once and then three 14 second runs.

Its just not right.

ZEUS2004

11-30-2006, 08:42 AM

slicks!!!!!!!!! you need slicks

TuneTimePerformance

11-30-2006, 09:21 AM

If you would check your email, you would see I sent it to Lyndon. He is better about following up and just feel I have a better chance getting it done right if it goes back to Canada. I offered that as a favor for you to get it done quicker . How can you tell what I can do ? Have you been here ? Have you ever seen anything bad about dealing with me ? OR ADM OR Vector ? We combined can do no right in your eyes,
Yesterday you said "Please don't mis-inform anyone". Well I have no intention of doing that and I don't know all the ins and outs of the TBSS tune, but I can make some pretty honest statements based on what the tune outputs. You sure do. But you did state that we removed all TQM and We didn't we gave you what you asked for .

Yesterday you also emailed me saying and I will quote "TM pulls fuel as well as timing . I have seen the tip in KR with the HPT but not the Snap-on could have been different situation that caused it"

Pulls fuel?? Uh, I don't think so. IF GM pulled fuel I would still see it in my logs. Take a look at my fuel areas. Everything from injectors to the wideband readings. Do you see any change in fuel? NO. Can you imagine pulling fuel? Sounds like a good way to burn something down to me. Well if it would burn something up why do some engines have a fuel cut as a rev limiter ? some do use spark and some use both or even close the throttle ?

Someone is going to have to prove to me otherwise and its going to have to be someone with more tuning experience on a TBSS than you. If you are right, I guess that makes GM, Vector, ADM, HPtuners, EFI live, etc all wrong.
You question my experience Why because my Turbo SS has 10k of trouble free driving ? or Because I use Lyndon to write some of our tunes ? But when it all comes down to TuneTimePerformance has as many fast TB SS's as any one else if not more ?

Compare my ignition timing below with any other tune you have seen. The dip at shifts is way early. I cant see any value in doing it there. The dotted verticle lines show where it shifts into the next gear.

It the choice of the buyer to decide if you want TM or not. I can't argue its value but I know GM put some there for a reason. It seams logical that they might have went overboard. But I have no intention of removing all of it. Longevity has more value in my application than one or two tenths through the quarter. It sure will thats why we give you the choice of stock 50% or 75% and go as far as we can to get away from that canned tune label.

I do think your trying to everyone a informed honest opinion but but trying to hurt my credibility or arguing a beat to death discussion. all because [ in this thread ] you posted that based on you experience with your G-TECH [ go to the track ] He could not achieve low 13's with Tune,Intake,U/D pulley and fans . When we have done it time and time again with AWD truck's .

I will not rebut you anymore. I just want all who reads this to understand that it is very possible to get low 13's,& where Tune Time / Westers is coming from. Again Rich I have told you that it was our fault for not seeing your Octane request on the order form .

Link to above mention scan log image (http://www.ss-shootout.com/site_images/matt_response.jpg)

Thanks

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 10:35 AM

I guess you are saying the truck has detonation because I am running BP92 octane and Lyndon tuned it for 93??

The truck feels great, it shifts great. No problems with how it feels. But if you take time to look at the log files I provided the truck spends most of its time runnning timing sub 20's (closer to 15 probably) because of KR. Because of this, the truck will run high 13s and low 14s. If it just happens not to trip off one of those KR cells down low, it might run pretty good. You ran a time almost as fast as ADM (uncorrected).

John Skiba was right when he told me to remove the TM and test it because the performance difference was large.

We can argue the TM/non TM thing forever but no one is going to win or lose that one. That is tough to prove. As I have said, I chose to play it safe as its my daily driver and I don't want UNEXPECTED down time and $$$ to rebuild the tranny.

You ask me about pulling fuel at the rev limiter. Well I dont disagree with that at all. But thats a safety thing and basically a last resort. Same thing for axle protection and traction control. But not torque management.

As I said, look at my logs. Where do you see any deviation in fuel? If that was your plan, its not working.

Andy (ADM) and Chris (Vector), if you read this. Do you pull fuel for TM? A simple yes or no is good enough as we are not trying to start a war.

Matt, you brought up your 10,000 mile Turbo SS. Thats cool, but I dont think I have ever seen a time slip on it. Why is that? Just asking as I am curious to see how such a beast runs. I know you have been to the track with the boys, but have not known you to participate.

And finally your comment "He could not achieve low 13's with Tune,Intake,U/D pulley and fans . When we have done it time and time again with AWD truck's ". I am guessing my tune will be back from Lyndon next week sometime. This will be your chance to do it.. again.

GTPprix

11-30-2006, 11:15 AM

Andy (ADM) and Chris (Vector), if you read this. Do you pull fuel for TM? A simple yes or no is good enough as we are not trying to start a war.

All I'll say is that the operating system for this truck does NOT have the ability to pull fuel for upshift/downshift torque management (hence why the TCM commands a spark reduction via a SPARK lookup table in the ECM) nor have we ever seen anything (SS or other GM vehicle) pull fuel for upshift/downshift torque management. The OS in this truck DOES have the ability to pull fuel for Traction Control and certain axle protection parameters HOWEVER those portions of thier respective operations are ALL disabled from the factory.

Anyone with a scan tool can verify this, its easy to see the spark dips from TM.

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 11:20 AM

All I'll say is that the operating system for this truck does NOT have the ability to pull fuel for upshift/downshift torque management (hence why the TCM commands a spark reduction via a SPARK lookup table in the ECM) nor have we ever seen anything (SS or other GM vehicle) pull fuel for upshift/downshift torque management. The OS in this truck DOES have the ability to pull fuel for Traction Control and certain axle protection parameters HOWEVER those portions of thier respective operations are ALL disabled from the factory.

Anyone with a scan tool can verify this, its easy to see the spark dips from TM.

What you say seems to match up with what I have seen in HPtuners.

I am still convinced my Westers tune has no TM. It just has something abnormal in the timing that appears to be a mistake in the tune.

Car_Guy

11-30-2006, 12:30 PM

So how can he get into low 13's??:crazy: :crazy:

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 12:37 PM

Its not as easy as some would make it sound.

But if you are going to stay normally aspirated, then its probably going to take a stall converter for sure.

Its hard to break 13.5 with bolt ons (some trucks will) without removing Torque Management and weight.

Maybe Tune Time will do a sub 13.5 offer or your money back !

Are you AWD or 2WD? And location? Air makes a lot of difference. The DA is -2800 here today. I just be in the lower 13s :)

TuneTimePerformance

11-30-2006, 02:12 PM

So how can he get into low 13's??:crazy: :crazy:
CAI,Tune,Efans,U/D pulleys .

clutchNthrottle

11-30-2006, 02:14 PM

Are you AWD or 2WD? And location?

Its 2WD!

I'm in Mississippi; dry and cold in winter, and hot and humid in the summer.

McCabe, do you have selective vision??:confused: :yes: :duh:

Its hard to break 13.5 with bolt ons (some trucks will) without removing Torque Management and weight.

:no: I heard of a 2wd TBSS running 13.5's STOCK with just a K&N filter... in subterranean neg-DA... ;) I ran 14.0 BONE stock with a ~2500ft DA which corrected to ~high 13.6's. Then ran 13.7 with CAI tune but NO CAI (still stock) with even higher DA's ~3000+ft which corrected to ~high 13.3's. Then once I got the CAI to go with the tune, 13.31 with ~500ft DA which corrected to ~13.2's. Then at a different track I was not familiar with, getting only 2 runs in and not finding a comfortable staging or launching routine, I ran 13.41. That day EVERYONE was off by .10 to .20 so doing the math, that comes out about right.

I've made a grand total of 13 passes in 4 trips to the track in my TBSS so I'm not a pro. My tune is also of the variety with a bit 'o TM left in for ummm... flavoring... :p So for ~$650 (for a CAI and tune) low 13's ARE possible on a 2wd TBSS with good air. Even in BAD air, the correction should reflect the same ball park "the freak's" times are in considering the local conditions, that's why it exists. It's neither hard to do nor a rare occurance. For about double the above price, adding a converter will put a 2wd TBSS comfortably in the high 12's low 13's. That's all it takes, 2-3 mods, 7-15 B. Franklins, and some spring/fall weather.

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 02:28 PM

:confused: :yes: :duh:

Hahaha. Next time I will reread the entire thread. I forgot about the Mississippi post and missed the AWD. Which everyone would add their truck to their profile.

As far as your comment "subterranean neg-DA" I agree. I ran a 13.6x stock with an AWD in -1000 DA. That was a few hundreths quicker than the Wester tune. Well I should not say stock as the truck had UD pulley and E-fans.

Well Matt said it, Tune, CAI, E-fans and UD. There is your guarantee from a vendor :yes:

If you dont mind a stall, its the fastest ways to drop ET quickly and will assist whatever you bolt on.

whalerguy

11-30-2006, 02:49 PM

Is their an easy way to raise the front of a 07 ss AWD up about 4" to make the truck level,or any way?

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 02:50 PM

Is their an easy way to raise the front of a 07 ss AWD up about 4" to make the truck level,or any way?

Its very easy to lower the back. Just by changing the air level switch.

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 06:11 PM

Just wanted to add a note saying that Lyndon from Westers dropped me an email which backs Matt up 100% as far as Matt's comments about pulling fuel.

I personally am not in a position to argue it as I really don't know what goes on inside. I am suspicious of the whole deal as as my injector logs show no change in fuel at WOT nor does the wideband AFR readings from the exhaust.

When you add upshift TM (or reduce) it in Hptuners it does not mess with fuel. As vector stated above it doesn't mess with fuel :undecided

Anyway, just wanted to post in Matt's defense what Lyndon said.

Rich

MrPGAPro

11-30-2006, 08:56 PM

rrmccabe

11-30-2006, 09:00 PM

whats all the "~DA 500" "~1000 neg" stuff-don't understand that??:o
, what would my weather in MS do for me-I ran the WRX in South Florida in JAN-about 50 degrees; no humidity my turbo liked it alot!!:D

Well the air temperature, humidity and pressure effects how your engine runs. No surprise there.

Go to this link here and change any of the parameters around and see what it does to your "corrected" times.

http://www.modulardepot.com/density.php

The LOWER the DA the better its gonna run. When a guys says something about negative DA its a good thing.

kenmosher

11-30-2006, 09:01 PM

That's odd ... from everything I've seen, it's only spark RETARD (not turning it off, just retarding the advance) on up/downshift management.

I have seen some ETC reduction (which, since airflow is decreased eventually reduces fuel), but only on axle protection (which isn't enabled for the TBSS or the GTO) and for traction control purposes (doesn't come into play on trans shifts).

On a 5.3 with variable displacement, I could see some fueling trickery, since they actually do individual cylinder deactivation ... but the LS2 doesn't do it at all (no hardware to support it).

Anyway, with the various scan tools reporting injector duty cycle every 20-50ms or so (DashHawk and HPT), you'd DEFINITELY see it if it was occuring. A WB might catch it if you sample it quick enough <100 ms and it's mounted close enough to the ports (some of the OEM stuff uses this trick in tuning on the dynos to catch individual cylinders with a single sensor). We've done it in Mercury's dynos...

I think that maybe we're talking AC/DC? The LS2 is a bit different than the 5.3?

whalerguy

12-01-2006, 07:50 AM

Its very easy to lower the back. Just by changing the air level switch.

Thanks how is that done ?

rrmccabe

12-01-2006, 08:13 AM

Its been discussed. Try searching. But there is a link going from the body or frame down to the rear axle. Its adjustable. You are in the wrong thread to get responses to a question like this :yes:

Forever A Fan

01-11-2007, 11:16 PM

AWD only mod drop-in K&N filter 13.52 99 mph at superchevy 06 columbus ohio. Only TBSS out that weekend people where impressed.:)

Juice

01-12-2007, 08:52 AM

Just take a look at the mods in my sig...:D

dv_tbss06

01-12-2007, 02:09 PM

i ran a 13.1 motor with my mods at my sig not the 100 shot

TonyGXP

01-12-2007, 02:27 PM

i ran a 13.1 motor with my mods at my sig not the 100 shot

Went 12.6 @106 & 12.5 @107 on DR's... TCI is Garbage...no offense..

dv_tbss06

01-12-2007, 02:37 PM

Went 12.6 @106 & 12.5 @107 on DR's... TCI is Garbage...no offense..

i know its just i had it sitting there ...i know if i change it to a vig ill be alot faster.....i never ran it with my et street radials though

slowfive0

03-10-2007, 06:54 PM

Great thread/info!!! Wondering if you did any towing with this converter? Sorry for the hi-jack---TTT! :)

Back to what I said earlier, you'll need a Converter with a Tune to hit your mark.. that's the easiest, most reliable way to go (meaning as close to stock as possible).. you could do a number of different things to hit a low 13 or high 12, but if you want to start out "light" that would be my suggestion.. I just installed the 3400Vig in my truck and it's almost like driving on the stock one.. I've had converters before, but this one is by the far the nicest when it comes to drivability.. When I pulled it out into the parking lot from the bay, I was like "Oh Man, this doesn't feel like a 3k+ stall, NOT AGAIN!" Boy was I wrong... regardless of what route you take, make sure you check all the sites out and ask people you believe to be truthful about their mods, should help alot..Tony