GM vs. Toyota

[Frostee]

An interesting story.... will it happen?

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/12/22/toyota.reut/index.html

[1BADSS]

Sure it will happen...Wait till the new Tundras are here, they're going to beat the **** out of the domestic trucks. 5.7 DOHC engines. There has been talk about it being around 400hp. Mine you the new Sierra and Silvy are pretty nice, still a lot of cheap plastic though.

[Doc Brown]

Yes, it will happen. Even if GM recovers from their woes, it will be years before they can regain market share, if ever. A while back I read an article quoting some guy whos in charge of the Impala. When asked if he felt they should be working to make Impala the #1 seller over the Camry, he said they didn't need to do that. What they are doing with the Impala is good enough.

Those aren't the exact words, but its the idea that bothers me. No wonder GM is in trouble. They are doing buisness as if its still the '60s. They still think they are invincible even in the midst of all their woes. Just good enough isn't going to cut it in todays market. This is the same attitude Sears had when it was still the #1 retailer. They didn't change even though they lost market share every year through the '80s and '90s. Now they are owned by K-Mart and they are barely a shadow of what they once were. GM may have resisted Nissan. Sadly, the time may come when they will have to accept an offer from Hundai.

[revenknight]

there seems to be alot of talk about this. I ask you how could it not? it's been happening for years and the domestics just back and watched it happen.
But now keep in mind as history has shown us with the big three, they just got too big and quality has went to crap because of the high production numbers. So I ask you do you think Toyota will do the same as the others???
I do. I work for a Toyota dealer and we are seeing warranty repairs go up on newer cars for stupid little things, next it will be larger and more safety related items. I believe Toyota surpassed all manufacturers with recalls for 2006 but no real numbers yet that I could find:confused: but I have heard this from several people.
Only time can tell.

[Dave]

It will happen but I know Toyota will have trouble selling the Tundra to a lot of people.

Our domestic makers watched it happen and did nothing. But our government really didn't do much also. They allowed a foreign company to sell vehicles a lot cheaper in this country then their own country if they sell them at all over there. I know some people don't believe that but in the end the American car makers lost

Not only will they be the top seller over here but they generally sell their vehicles for the MSRP or close to it while American car makers are selling theirs for below invoice just to move them.

I would never by a Toyota though. Not because of where the company is based at but they are just not my style. Camry, Avalon and Prius are not exactly exciting cars to drive. Bland and boring are usually the words that are associated with a Toyota. Being preceived as extremely reliable also kind of adds to the boring status IMO.

[1BADSS]

there seems to be alot of talk about this. I ask you how could it not? it's been happening for years and the domestics just back and watched it happen.
But now keep in mind as history has shown us with the big three, they just got too big and quality has went to crap because of the high production numbers. So I ask you do you think Toyota will do the same as the others???
I do. I work for a Toyota dealer and we are seeing warranty repairs go up on newer cars for stupid little things, next it will be larger and more safety related items. I believe Toyota surpassed all manufacturers with recalls for 2006 but no real numbers yet that I could find:confused: but I have heard this from several people.
Only time can tell.

Quality went to crap cause they started to build over here. I think the Foreigners take more pride in their work. IMO

[Frostee]

Quality went to crap cause they started to build over here. I think the Foreigners take more pride in their work. IMO

:iagree: they seem to care more about the job they do on a single car, rather than get 10000 of them out there in a week...

[trailblazingold]

The new tundra is hideous omg whoever buys that is either blind or just likes crappy toyotas.

[revenknight]

Quality went to crap cause they started to build over here. I think the Foreigners take more pride in their work. IMO

I hate to agree with you on this but I do think this is true also.

[1BADSS]

I hate to agree with you on this but I do think this is true also.

I hate to agree with myself too. It is sad for stuff to be built like that over here. I still believe GM is a sleeping giant and hope they pull their **** together.

[nicevoy2]

Yes, it will happen. Even if GM recovers from their woes, it will be years before they can regain market share, if ever. A while back I read an article quoting some guy whos in charge of the Impala. When asked if he felt they should be working to make Impala the #1 seller over the Camry, he said they didn't need to do that. What they are doing with the Impala is good enough.

Those aren't the exact words, but its the idea that bothers me. No wonder GM is in trouble. They are doing buisness as if its still the '60s. They still think they are invincible even in the midst of all their woes. Just good enough isn't going to cut it in todays market. This is the same attitude Sears had when it was still the #1 retailer. They didn't change even though they lost market share every year through the '80s and '90s. Now they are owned by K-Mart and they are barely a shadow of what they once were. GM may have resisted Nissan. Sadly, the time may come when they will have to accept an offer from Hundai.

it only happen if us as Americans let i. I will always by GM product. all these vehicles have plastic in them:undecided

[Bears]

TOYOTAS ARE FOR GIRLIE MEN
http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA06E57_NORMAL.jpg

[BigD SS]

I think the sleeping giant is awake. I look at the vehicles they have just released (full size SUVs, full size pickups, Acadia, G6, to name a few) and what is coming up (have you seen the new Malibu, very nice) and they will still be the number 1 auto manufacturer. I know I will still buy from GM.

[1BADSS]

I think the sleeping giant is awake. I look at the vehicles they have just released (full size SUVs, full size pickups, Acadia, G6, to name a few) and what is coming up (have you seen the new Malibu, very nice) and they will still be the number 1 auto manufacturer. I know I will still buy from GM.

The G6? What a hunk of garbage that car is. The interior is horrid. The new trucks aren't too bad though. Still could use a little improvement interior wise.

[Abelcastro1]

TOYOTAS ARE FOR GIRLIE MEN
http://www.frc.org/img/item/WA06E57_NORMAL.jpg

DAMN!!! Right!

[BigD SS]

The G6? What a hunk of garbage that car is. The interior is horrid. The new trucks aren't too bad though. Still could use a little improvement interior wise.

Based on what? Your opinion? Hey, we're all entitled to that.

The only thing that could have been said about the G6 was the engine and tranny; but now, you can get the 3.6 V6 and the 6 speed. Takes care of that issue.

[Doc Brown]

it only happen if us as Americans let i. I will always by GM product. all these vehicles have plastic in them:undecided

Hmm, sadly then, we as Americans began the process over 30 years ago. Consumers are going to buy what they think is the best. Toyota and Honda have a done a great job backing up thier product. Granted I don't believe they make anything much better than GM or Ford does. But the big 3 have reputations of failing to honor warranties and weaseling out of their corporate responsibilites to the consumer. They are responsible for training consumers to believe that American made vehicles are junk. So consumers stick with, and praise, the companies that are standing behind thier cars, Toyota and Honda.

It doesn't help that the pencil pushers are really running GM and Ford either. I compared a Cadillac CTS to an Infinity G35 last year. Pretty comparable cars really. However, when I pulled the doors closed on the Caddy, the door panel bowed. Why? Because some moron in accounting found that they could save $.50 a car by leaving out a few retainer clips. He probably got a $5k bonus for his "inovation". Meanwhile GM loses millions in sales because people don't want sub-quality like that. Ever look at the junky piece of plastic where the seat controls are on your TB? Mine has broken mounts. I'd be willing to bet that the engineer that originally designed it made it tough enough to take abuse of the driver sliding in and out several times a day. Someone else thought they'd save a buck and use something cheesy. Like I said in my earlier post, GM thinks good enough is enough. They are missing the little things, the things that count to consumers. Until they "get it", they will continue to slide.

Chuck

[1BADSS]

Based on what? Your opinion? Hey, we're all entitled to that.

The only thing that could have been said about the G6 was the engine and tranny; but now, you can get the 3.6 V6 and the 6 speed. Takes care of that issue.

...and one sloppy ass 6 speed at that.

[BigD SS]

...and one sloppy ass 6 speed at that.

Again, compared to what?? Have you even driven this engine and transmission combination? Based on your comments, I would say no.

[1BADSS]

Again, compared to what?? Have you even driven this engine and transmission combination? Based on your comments, I would say no.

Yes I have, I was looking at them before I got a Grand Prix GXP. Go drive a Honda 6 Speed, then go drive the G6 GTP. You'll see what I'm talking about. That G6 isn't that great in the power delivery either.

[BigD SS]

Yes I have, I was looking at them before I got a Grand Prix GXP. Go drive a Honda 6 Speed, then go drive the G6 GTP. You'll see what I'm talking about. That G6 isn't that great in the power delivery either.

The G6 GTP you drove was the 3.9 V6 with the 6 speed manual. The one I was talking about is the 3.6 V6 with the 6 speed auto. They are just coming out now, but they are also is the Saturn Aura.

I have driven the G6 GTP and liked it. The motor was torquey and the tranny was decent. I have also driven the Aura and that was very nice.

I have not driven a new Honda Accord 6 speed so I will not comment on that one. I have driven Accords and Civic in the past with the manual transmissions and was never impressed with the cable actuated shifters - very rubbery.

[1BADSS]

The G6 GTP you drove was the 3.9 V6 with the 6 speed manual. The one I was talking about is the 3.6 V6 with the 6 speed auto. They are just coming out now, but they are also is the Saturn Aura.

I have driven the G6 GTP and liked it. The motor was torquey and the tranny was decent. I have also driven the Aura and that was very nice.

I have not driven a new Honda Accord 6 speed so I will not comment on that one. I have driven Accords and Civic in the past with the manual transmissions and was never impressed with the cable actuated shifters - very rubbery.

My bad..when you said 6 speed I automatically thought a manual. Honda has a wicked 6 Speed in the Accord and S2000. No where near the older Honda 5 speeds.

[LS7JEN]

The new tundra is hideous omg whoever buys that is either blind or just likes crappy toyotas.

If you don't like you moms cookin'........leave home. My other car isn't a import either. I wouldn't NEVER buy anything other than a GM product.

it only happen if us as Americans let i. I will always by GM product. all these vehicles have plastic in them:undecided

I saw a website the other day. I guess it was started by a GM employee. It's called "FART". No joke. It's "Fans Against Racing Toyotas". Very interesting to read about all the people who should be locked up for treason. Just my .02.

[1_Happy_Fool]

I saw a video of the new 2007 6 speed 5.7L Tundra getting dynoed

Factory horespower and torque ratings:

381hp/401 lbs/ft

Gear ratio:

4.30 containing a massive 10.5 ring gear!

Actual horsepower to the wheels via dyno pull:

321

0-60 time:

6.3

1/4 mile:

14.8@93.7mph


Truck wars are indeed heating up. I imagine Chevy will have no choice but to offer the 6.2L/L92 in practically everything just to keep pace, and even that might not be enough!

It should be noted that the model used for the 0-60 run was a Double Cab 4x4 which weighed in at a ground shattering 5637lbs. If one decides to order(me...hehe) a 2wd single cab short bed version of this truck(much lighter in weight) you might just have yourself a boulevard bruiser! Move over Titan!!!

With hp numbers like this(and Toyota quality to boot) I may have to make this my daily driver! Hell, simple intake and exhaust mods should make this thing fly!

Hey Chris...you working on a tune yet?:undecided $$$$$$ :yes:

Read full article here:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=119089

[a990dna]

I saw a video of the new 2007 6 speed 5.7L Tundra getting dynoed

[Snip]

Truck wars are indeed heating up. I imagine Chevy will have no choice but to offer the 6.2L/L92 in practically everything just to keep pace, and even that might not be enough!

It should be noted that the model used for the 0-60 run was a Double Cab 4x4 which weighed in at a ground shattering 5637lbs. If one decides to order(me...hehe) a 2wd single cab short bed version of this truck(much lighter in weight) you might just have yourself a boulevard bruiser! Move over Titan!!!

With hp numbers like this(and Toyota quality to boot) I may have to make this my daily driver! Hell, simple intake and exhaust mods should make this thing fly!



Before you get too excited about Toyota quality maybe you should read this:

businessweek.com (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2007/bw20070111_217870.htm?chan=search)

I have a new 2005 Land Cruiser ... guess what? Toyota has just cut the checks to buy my lemon back. They're not as great as everyone believes they are .. at least what we've been led to believe.

I imagine we will hear more about this as Toyota scrambles around trying to instill damage control ... probably will LEAN out a few employees and suppliers.

[1BADSS]

I saw a video of the new 2007 6 speed 5.7L Tundra getting dynoed

Factory horespower and torque ratings:

381hp/401 lbs/ft

Gear ratio:

4.30 containing a massive 10.5 ring gear!

Actual horsepower to the wheels via dyno pull:

321

0-60 time:

6.3

1/4 mile:

14.8@93.7mph


Truck wars are indeed heating up. I imagine Chevy will have no choice but to offer the 6.2L/L92 in practically everything just to keep pace, and even that might not be enough!

It should be noted that the model used for the 0-60 run was a Double Cab 4x4 which weighed in at a ground shattering 5637lbs. If one decides to order(me...hehe) a 2wd single cab short bed version of this truck(much lighter in weight) you might just have yourself a boulevard bruiser! Move over Titan!!!

With hp numbers like this(and Toyota quality to boot) I may have to make this my daily driver! Hell, simple intake and exhaust mods should make this thing fly!

Hey Chris...you working on a tune yet?:undecided $$$$$$ :yes:

Read full article here:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=119089

It's right there with the Titan now. Wait till a TRD version comes. I can't wait for it to get here. I think I'm jumping on one.I hope it puts a hurting into GM. Payback for all the **** they plopped out in recent years.

[1_Happy_Fool]

Thanks for the article A990dna.

But I'm sincerely hoping Toyota got it right this time with this new motor and all. Amazing that this Tundra can get 321hp to the wheels. That might be a tad more than a stock TBSS's..no? Of course horsepower isn't everything(although it sure is hard to tell now adays..lol)and I'm hoping the quality is there...Toyota has alot riding on this one(Tundra), and if they fail, they stand to lose millions of customers.

I will seriously take a look at making the Tundra my daily driver(I like to keep my TBSS safe and sound...in the garage..lol) If I decide to get one(lightest version available) I'll make sure to post some 1/4 mile times in the not to distant future.

Seems as though Tundra owners will now be driving with "chips on their shoulders" waiting to destroy unsuspecting Titan, Silverado, and Ram owners..lol. LET THE HORSEPOWER WARS BEGIN!!!!

[1BADSS]

Before you get too excited about Toyota quality maybe you should read this:

businessweek.com (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2007/bw20070111_217870.htm?chan=search)

I have a new 2005 Land Cruiser ... guess what? Toyota has just cut the checks to buy my lemon back. They're not as great as everyone believes they are .. at least what we've been led to believe.

I imagine we will hear more about this as Toyota scrambles around trying to instill damage control ... probably will LEAN out a few employees and suppliers.


The thing with Toyota is they'll actually fix the problem, instead of GM letting design flaws go on forever and never correct it, till the model line is done.

[Underdog]

History of The General :undecided
http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/history/gmhis1900.html
So i did not do all the research, but you can read.
I was thinking about GM and opel and Isuzu and Suzuki and Saab and etc.
And then thinking about all the problems the domestics are having manufacturing in the USA.
Side note > Look into the history of employee benafits / Fascinating.
So my point is maybe they want to disolve in order to evolve.
They have plenty of other names to use.
Just a thought :crazy:
Ford has a similar past AMC left the building years ago and Chrysler has already packed there chute.
Oh well random thoughts from an unstable mind.

[1_Happy_Fool]

I hope it puts a hurting into GM. Payback for all the **** they plopped out in recent years.[/quote]



:rotfl:

[Threader]

Fresh for 2007 Toyota Recalls

Quote "Toyota is planning on recalling about 533,000 Sequoias and Tundras. The recall is to repair a faulty component that could make the vehicles hard to steer.

According to the automaker, six people have been injured as a result of the defect.

The recall applies to 2004 to 2007 model Sequoias and 2004 to 2006 Tundras. Toyota plans to notify owners in mid-February 2007. The defective front suspension will be fixed free of charge." end quote

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/5272686.html

Toyota looking very domestic these days

GM could take this opportunity to turn GMC into the Quality King Toyota once was in years gone by. So far my 2006 Envoy has Zero recalls. Score one for my Sweet Envoy and one against the 2006 Sequoia

[PIMP]

All I can say is that there is a lot of hipe over foreign garbage but they are not what everyone makes them out to be. I had a Toyota that died at 110K, an Accord that died at 120K, yet now own 7 Chevy's, 4 of which have over 150K. We have a 94 Suburban with 225K that we have plowed with since day one. With regards to plastic parts, it seems to me that the trucks that have the most plastic exterior crap would be Toyota & Nissan. Not GM!

[a990dna]

I tend to agree since Toyota just bought back my 2005 Land Cruiser last week. From the beginning it was a rattle trap and eventually developed a knock in the front end.

They investigated and found the frame was defective.. welds popped loose in the boxed frame and was making noise. They wanted to take my entire vehicle apart and replace the frame -- I said NOT while I own it.

They finally agreed to a buy back.

[Dave]

My 2nd Denali has been solid with almost 15k on it now. The first one was bought back for a radio problem but that is all it had problems with.

TB had a few minor problems that later turned out to be a recall (turn flasher not working, rear wiper) but has generally been a great vehicle.

[LS7JEN]

ANYBODY in the USA who buys a Toyota should be tried for TREASON. My .02 and don't need any flamers. I lost my job because of all the GOOD Americans buying Japanese cars.

[Underdog]

ANYBODY in the USA who buys a Toyota should be tried for TREASON. My .02 and don't need any flamers. I lost my job because of all the GOOD Americans buying Japanese cars.

Bummer:worried:
Why did you not swap allegiance? Or did you ?
Alot of the foreign makes are now more American than the big three :confused:
You really have to do your home work to figure out a vehicles true origins and content these days.
The TrailVoy seems to be almost entirely American made.
Anyone know of foreign content ?

[crazytb]

Under the hood of my trailblazer it says made in mexico :no: ..not sure of the rest of it

[Dave]

A vehicle could have 100% North American parts but the money can still go overseas. There are a lot of parts on the Trailvoy that are not from North America, one was beat to death in another thread (SS wheels are from China) but the money does come back to North America.

The "Big Three" always seem to be behind the power curve when it comes to building cars. I disagree with critics that they are unreliable. I've seen just as many BMWs, Toyotas and Nissans break as I have American cars.

There will be plenty of pros and cons for both makes. I just don't like the looks of a Toyota but that is just my opinion. They are excellent cars but they are not my style.

GM cars have drivetrain parts that are assembled in different parts of the world (Is a Vibe North American because it is a Pontiac while a Matrix is not because it is a Toyota? Both have the same foreign drivetrain. A lot of GM trannies are built south of the US border and some engines are built down there also.

I can understand LS7JEN's point. A lot of North Americans are losing jobs because our companies are going elsewhere to get their goods made while foreign companies set up shop in our country.

[a990dna]

ANYBODY in the USA who buys a Toyota should be tried for TREASON. My .02 and don't need any flamers. I lost my job because of all the GOOD Americans buying Japanese cars.

Sorry you lost your job. I'm also in manufacturing and faced with globalization and threat of job loss. But the same can be said for every TV, DVD, stereo and home theater system in the USA -- including other products that succumed to foreign competition over the past 30 years. We were once the leader in electronics as well. Of course these aren't high ticket items so they don't get the same scrutiny.

What's your position regarding those good 'ole boys that went to work for Toyota? Should they be shot? I just had 4 grueling days with a LEAN consultant that worked at the first Toyota plant in Kentucky -- started when he was 19. He worked in that plant for 16 years to feed his family. He didn't have work because the family farm wasn't producing tabacco anymore. He's been a LEAN consultant for 3-4 years now. I asked a lot of questions because I'm interested in Toyota's manufacturing methods -- something we should have been doing for the past 10 years.

Unfortunately its a "global" dog-eat-dog world with an uneven playing field... if anyone should be tried for "TREASON" it should be each and every politian that served in office since the Reagan administration.

Take care of yourself .. I realize this is a trying time for all Americans.

PS -- and yes, I made a mistake buying a Toyota. If Jeep hadn't discontinued the Cherokee I would have bought another -- but wait, they're owned by a bunch of Germans now! :mad:

[Super 88]

I would never by a Toyota though. Not because of where the company is based at but they are just not my style. Camry, Avalon and Prius are not exactly exciting cars to drive.
I'd guess you've never driven one either!


Bland and boring are usually the words that are associated with a Toyota. Being preceived as extremely reliable also kind of adds to the boring status IMO.

If that's the case, I sure wish my TB was more "boring" I drive a car to get from point a to point b, not for the "excitement" value. If I want excitement I'll go to an NBA or NFL game.

[Dave]

I'd guess you've never driven one either!


If that's the case, I sure wish my TB was more "boring" I drive a car to get from point a to point b, not for the "excitement" value. If I want excitement I'll go to an NBA or NFL game.

I have driven plenty of Toyotas over the years including Camrys, a Supra and a MR2. The last two was definitely interesting.

It all depends on what excites you. Personally I wouldn't pay to see a NBA game in person, NFL definitely yes. And if excellent reliability is the key to be boring then my Denali has been one the most "boring" cars that I have ever owned in around 600k miles of driving. That includes a few Asian and European imports.

Toyotas are fine cars but the Avalon and Camry don't exactly stir up excitement like a bunch of other cars do. You definitely don't hear people saying "I would like to buy a Toyota someday."

[PROSPHOTO]

Toyotas are fine cars but the Avalon and Camry don't exactly stir up excitement like a bunch of other cars do. You definitely don't hear people saying "I would like to buy a Toyota someday."

:iagree: And I guarantee there are plenty of people, old and young, saying "I'd like to buy an SS someday" or Vette, or Camaro, or GTO, or Cadillac, etc. etc.http://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/excalmatorymark.gif

[Super 88]

:iagree: And I guarantee there are plenty of people, old and young, saying "I'd like to buy an SS someday" or Vette, or Camaro, or GTO, or Cadillac, etc. etc.http://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/excalmatorymark.gif
True, but I haven't heard too many people say "I want to buy an Envoy someday. I hear they are really exciting to drive."
Of course a lot depends on your age and/or maturity level.
Personally after seeing the poor build quality of these GM vehicles, I wish I would have bought a Toyota SUV. Before my TB I hadn't owned a GM made vehicle in about 25 years, now I see why!
Only 600K Dave? You have a long ways to go to catch up to me.

[Red06LS]

I'm sure Toyotas are great vehicles and all. But I'm of the same mind as most Americans. If it looks like s@#t, I'm not driving it. I don't care how good it is. That's pretty much my whole problem with anything made in Japan or by a Japanese company. The vehicles have no soul. They are appliances. Sure, they look different from each other and all. But take the emblems off. Can you still pick out the Accord from the Camry? And anyway lets face it. We're Americans. We're gonna want to fix our vehicles ourselves. Don't make em too reliable. We need something to do on the weekend.:D

[Super 88]

Can you still pick out the Accord from the Camry?

Actually yes I can. It's really not too hard.


And anyway lets face it. We're Americans. We're gonna want to fix our vehicles ourselves. Don't make em too reliable. We need something to do on the weekend.:D

:yes: :dielaugh:
Good point. Kind of like the person in this post:
http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=21121

or
http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=20745

Really makes me want to rush out and buy an SS

[Dave]

And even with those problems I would still buy a SS over a Toyota. You might want to check yourself into a hospital if you can't handle the stress of a repair now and then. I rather own a car that is somewhat exciting since I have to drive it everyday. Toyota owners usually say they bought their car so they can to get from point A to B in a reliable and efficient manner. I don't hear any saying they own one because they love to drive though. I forgot they want to save the environment. Too bad they are killing it more by owning an older house then they are buy using a little more gas.

[2007RedSS]

I never liked the import cars primarily for their looks and then performance. As far as reliability I have never had any major problems with my American cars in over 20 years, even when the quality wasn't as good. The other day some notes came to light about Toyota saying they don't want to support the communities where they are like the domestic OE's do. That ALONE will ensure I NEVER buy one. Also, what did they do when 9/11 happened?? Nothing, while the domestics gave money and vehicles to the efforts for NY. The interesting thing is Toyota makes 80% of their operating profits from this country ALONE. They also manipulate their currency to undercut here and we do not tariff like they do on foreign imports. I do not work for a union either. I live here and until my check is paid for in YEN(which I hope it never is) then I will continue to buy from a domestic. At least they SUPPORT this country in a number of ways unlike the imports. My 2 cents.

[Super 88]

And even with those problems I would still buy a SS over a Toyota. You might want to check yourself into a hospital if you can't handle the stress of a repair now and then. I rather own a car that is somewhat exciting since I have to drive it everyday. Toyota owners usually say they bought their car so they can to get from point A to B in a reliable and efficient manner. I don't hear any saying they own one because they love to drive though. I forgot they want to save the environment. Too bad they are killing it more by owning an older house then they are buy using a little more gas.

Say what? You are making more stereotypes I barely know where to start. When the people I know bought a Toyota I don't remember any of them wanting to "save the environment". Maybe with the exception of the Prius - but then again many other manufact. are selling hybrid vehicles - including GM. I doubt if anyone would call any of the Toyota SUV's environmentally friendly.
If you want to see my house, come on by. It was new last August, little over 3/4 of a million. I paid cash for wife's Toyota, will pay cash for my daughter's as well.
A little stress? Having a $40K vehicle in the dealership for 2 or 3 major repairs in the first 10K miles is normal? You can buy all the GM cars you want - be my guest. You already admit GM had to buy one of yours back. I guess that makes it exciting too!
Read the posts Dave. One of the vendors for this very site is bad mouthing the SS - numerous times. I guess he just doesn't know what he's talking about.
And all the hundred of thousands of "boring" people who bought Toyota's over the last decade don't know anything either. There is a reason GM is sinking, and Toyota and other manufacturers are growing. Most people don't buy a new vehicle and then expect to have to figure out a way to make the transmission work better in the first year and get it to last for more than a few thousand miles.
You don't like Toyota's that's fine, but you can insult me and all the other Toyota buyers all you want Dave, but it doesn't change the facts. The numbers speak for themselves. And next time, get your economic facts right before you try to ridicule me!

For all the diehard "buy US" people, GM is currently importing engines made in China for use in their new "crossover" vehicle the Equinox - made in Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Equinox

[Atlas]

A little stress? Having a $40K vehicle in the dealership for 2 or 3 major repairs in the first 10K miles is normal? You can buy all the GM cars you want - be my guest. You already admit GM had to buy one of yours back. I guess that makes it exciting too!

My TB SS has 10K+ miles and not a single problem... You can't base this off of a few bad eggs... Toyota has had their fair share of recalls in the past 12 months... Just take a look at this: http://www.automotive.com/used-cars/recalls/01/toyota/index.html

[Threader]

For all the diehard "buy US" people, GM is currently importing engines made in China for use in their new "crossover" vehicle the Equinox - made in Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Equinox

The made in China GM engine is no more Chinese than a Camry made in Kentucky is American. :weird: :m2:

[Super 88]

The made in China GM engine is no more Chinese than a Camry made in Kentucky is American. :weird: :m2:
Maybe, but the point is that GM is using cheap Chinese labor so they don't have to pay AMERICAN workers.

[Dave]

Name a Toyota that is known for excitement (I already mentioned the Supra and MR2).

GM has had some reliability issues and yes GM did buy one of my vehicles back. And the one that replaced it has been more reliable then ANY other car that I have owned. So has Toyota or its "luxury" division Lexus. (The big Lexus had its tranny recalled because it failed to stay in park, but that somehow gets left out of the press).

It is a global market so even Toyota isn't 100% made in Japan. I really don't care why people buy Toyotas. I know that I will never be one because they are not my style. I never said they were bad cars (I actually called them "fine" cars in a previous post. GM has been "importing" engines for years. The 3.4L V-6 is made overseas, a lot of trannies are made overseas, the SS wheels are made in China. You say I'm insulting Toyota owners but yet you insult GM owners buy saying they are all unreliable. The Pontiac Vibe is pretty much a Toyota Matrix. I'm not a "buy US" type because I know there isn't many US made cars out there (although some come close). I like GM cars because of the driving characteristics of pushrod motors. While some people may say pushrod motors are behind times, they have proven to be extremely reliable.

It sounds like you have a nice house and it is great that you pay cash for your Toyotas. I can say that I didn't have to spend 3/4 mil on my new house and it is a pretty nice one with great mountain views. Money isn't as big of a concern for me, only happiness in which we have plenty of. My whole point about the old house statement is that some owners of hybrids (Camry and Prius fit in there) love their car because it is saving the environment, but then they don't care about wasting natural gas/oil/water in their house. They also don't care about recycling. My brother actually has a very nice 125 year old house back in NJ with a few GM cars in his garage.

You already said that you only care about going from point A to point B but don't fault the people that want to get to point B with some excitement. Sometimes the thrill of driving is not getting to your destination but just getting there.

[Super 88]

Name a Toyota that is known for excitement (I already mentioned the Supra and MR2).

GM has had some reliability issues and yes GM did buy one of my vehicles back. And the one that replaced it has been more reliable then ANY other car that I have owned. So has Toyota or its "luxury" division Lexus. (The big Lexus had its tranny recalled because it failed to stay in park, but that somehow gets left out of the press).

It is a global market so even Toyota isn't 100% made in Japan. I really don't care why people buy Toyotas. I know that I will never be one because they are not my style. I never said they were bad cars (I actually called them "fine" cars in a previous post. GM has been "importing" engines for years. The 3.4L V-6 is made overseas, a lot of trannies are made overseas, the SS wheels are made in China. You say I'm insulting Toyota owners but yet you insult GM owners buy saying they are all unreliable. The Pontiac Vibe is pretty much a Toyota Matrix. I'm not a "buy US" type because I know there isn't many US made cars out there (although some come close). I like GM cars because of the driving characteristics of pushrod motors. While some people may say pushrod motors are behind times, they have proven to be extremely reliable.

It sounds like you have a nice house and it is great that you pay cash for your Toyotas. I can say that I didn't have to spend 3/4 mil on my new house and it is a pretty nice one with great mountain views. Money isn't as big of a concern for me, only happiness in which we have plenty of. My whole point about the old house statement is that some owners of hybrids (Camry and Prius fit in there) love their car because it is saving the environment, but then they don't care about wasting natural gas/oil/water in their house. They also don't care about recycling. My brother actually has a very nice 125 year old house back in NJ with a few GM cars in his garage.

You already said that you only care about going from point A to point B but don't fault the people that want to get to point B with some excitement. Sometimes the thrill of driving is not getting to your destination but just getting there.

Just to clarify one point, I didn't say ALL GM cars are unreliable. I ONLY mentioned the SS which you and another poster brought up. And I didn't bring up the subject of money - you did! I responded to your insults.
I'm going to leave it at this. I'm leaving this post - you can bad mouth me and all Toyota people all you want - I wouldn't be reading it.
There are very FEW cars I would say are exciting to drive. (You seem to be hung up on the excitement thing. You've mentioned it numerous times in many of your post.) MOST of them are not made by GM or Toyota.

For the record I like my LS, it is a nice vehicle to drive, but I am extremely disappointed in the build quality especially after comparing it to other vehicles that family/friends have about the same age. If I'm wrong to expect more out of a GM vehicle, then so be it. Frankly I could care less what vehicle you or anyone else drives. You've made your opinions quite clear here about Toyota - it's just a shame you don't allow other people to have an opinion without insulting and belittling them!

I'm glad you are happy in Idaho. I'm certainly enjoying my life in southern California. Later!

[jack0278]

Just to clarify one point, I didn't say ALL GM cars are unreliable. I ONLY mentioned the SS which you and another poster brought up. And I didn't bring up the subject of money - you did! I responded to your insults.
I'm going to leave it at this. I'm leaving this post - you can bad mouth me and all Toyota people all you want - I wouldn't be reading it.
There are very FEW cars I would say are exciting to drive. (You seem to be hung up on the excitement thing. You've mentioned it numerous times in many of your post.) MOST of them are not made by GM or Toyota.

For the record I like my LS, it is a nice vehicle to drive, but I am extremely disappointed in the build quality especially after comparing it to other vehicles that family/friends have about the same age. If I'm wrong to expect more out of a GM vehicle, then so be it. Frankly I could care less what vehicle you or anyone else drives. You've made your opinions quite clear here about Toyota - it's just a shame you don't allow other people to have an opinion without insulting and belittling them!

I'm glad you are happy in Idaho. I'm certainly enjoying my life in southern California. Later!

OUCH :crazy: I have a 2007 SS AWD and a 2002 Toyota Tacoma.
Both great vehicles! :D

[Frostee]

i completely forgot about this thread... lol

but i came across an editorial cartoon that made me alugh and think of this all over again...

http://www.cbc.ca/photogallery/fullscreen.html?dataPath=/photogallery/diversions/gallery_306/xml/gallery_306.xml&startImage=1


and i havent read all of it yet, so i dont know if this was mentioned at all, but with GM now offering longer warranties on their engines on new vehicles, they seem to be trying to win back part of that reliability market while still having the lower prices...

[Blueblazed]

For the record I like my LS, it is a nice vehicle to drive, but I am extremely disappointed in the build quality especially after comparing it to other vehicles that family/friends have about the same age. If I'm wrong to expect more out of a GM vehicle, then so be it. Frankly I could care less what vehicle you or anyone else drives. You've made your opinions quite clear here about Toyota - it's just a shame you don't allow other people to have an opinion without insulting and belittling them!


:iagree: You've got to love the "anti-Toyota" people. :D FWIW I have noticed there seems to be an awful lot of tranny/rear end problems with the SS I spent a few minutes going through the first few pages and saw comments like "Yet another bad trans . . . " and "Add me to the list of us with trans issues!" and "Another tranny bites the dust."
I love the remark Alvin from PCMFORLESS made: "Comon.. everyone start chanting recall recall recall.. " :dielaugh:
I think it will be interesting to see where GM is a year from now. I'm not sure the longer warranty time will lure people "back". While Dave may think that: "You might want to check yourself into a hospital if you can't handle the stress of a repair now and then" personally I think 2 or 3 major repairs in the first year is excessive.
My 05 LS has been okay mechanically, (minor problems - a.c, fan belt noise, sunroof doesn't work) but I agree with others that the interior build quality and fit/finish leaves much to be desired. If I had a rear end AND a tranny go out in the first 6K, I agree with the poster that said
Busted 3rd gear sprag... stock 2wd SS.

At 3000 miles the rearend was replaced...

At 6000 miles the transmission breaks...

Not sure how I feel about this truck anymore, don't think I want to stick around for whatever is going to happen at 9000 miles!

:mad:

[1BADSS]

GM's and Toyota's Annual Canoe Race

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program," with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.



The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .


:dielaugh: :dielaugh:

[PROSPHOTO]

http://smiles2k.net/smiles/big_smiles/super_smilies007.gif

...But are you sure it was supposed to be GM; sounds more like government agencies to me (my employer)http://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/excalmatorymark.gif

[Doc Brown]

GM's and Toyota's Annual Canoe Race

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

/snip ....

:dielaugh: :dielaugh:


Thats priceless! And well sums up GMs (and other corporations) problems. GM has as much potentential to be the best as any other manufacturer has. They simply fail to look at the simple truth of what they need to fix. The fault is all thier own.

Sadly, this whole thread seems to have gone south. While I personally prefer GM vehicles, if someone chooses to buy a Toyota or Honda, so be it. I just like the look and feel of most of GM's cars and I always have. I also don't believe that Toyota's quality of the past 10 years is any better than GMs. In my opinion, half a dozen of one, 6 of another. A guy I work with bought a late 90s Camry that blew the head gaskets at 60k. Come to find out that was a little "hidden, unplublished" problem on some Camrys.

Still, I'm considering replacing my wife's Cadillac with a G35 (true, not a Toyota, but a whole lot more exciting!). Besides, GM makes plenty of boring cars too, Impala, Malibu, any Buick, and most of the Saturns. So why do people get so heated up? Go buy a camera or home theatre system. Guess where its made? Not in the US. Look around your home, how much do you own that's really "American Made"? Only the furniture probably. Try and buy only American made products and you'll not only need two jobs, you'll not have a lot of toys either. Buy what you feel comfortable buying, don't bash the other guy for his decisions, we each make decisions that someone else will have an issue with.

As already stated, no vehicle is manufactured in any one country anymore. The foreign name plates have to assemble in the US because they simply can't compete if they didn't. The American name plates have parts from all over the world and some are assembled in Mexico and elsewhere. Motor Trend even combined the COTY award to a single award because there are no longer any true foreign or domestic cars.

Reliability? As I said above, GM is no better or worse than Toyota. Todays cars, pretty much no matter who you buy them from, are pretty solid. It took Toyota 30 years to gain the popularity it has by just staying one step ahead of GM. Its going to take GM at least 10 years to gain back some of that loyalty.

[04TBEXT]

I heard that (4) car manufacturers competed in the Daytona 500 (Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge & Toyota). Out of the car models each manufacturers used, only one of these models are assembled in the U.S.A. Can you guess which one ?...

[ScarabEpic22]

I heard that (4) car manufacturers competed in the Daytona 500 (Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge & Toyota). Out of the car models each manufacturers used, only one of these models are assembled in the U.S.A. Can you guess which one ?...

I going to say the Toyota first (or Chevy).

[04TBEXT]

I heard this trivia question asked by one of the announcers during the race...
Chevrolet Monte Carlos and Dodge Avengers are assembled in Canada while the Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico. The Toyota ironically, is assembled here in the U.S....Can you say "egg on the face?"

[wannabeSS]

Thats priceless! And well sums up GMs (and other corporations) problems. GM has as much potentential to be the best as any other manufacturer has. They simply fail to look at the simple truth of what they need to fix. The fault is all thier own.

Sadly, this whole thread seems to have gone south. While I personally prefer GM vehicles, if someone chooses to buy a Toyota or Honda, so be it. I just like the look and feel of most of GM's cars and I always have. I also don't believe that Toyota's quality of the past 10 years is any better than GMs. In my opinion, half a dozen of one, 6 of another. A guy I work with bought a late 90s Camry that blew the head gaskets at 60k. Come to find out that was a little "hidden, unplublished" problem on some Camrys.

Still, I'm considering replacing my wife's Cadillac with a G35 (true, not a Toyota, but a whole lot more exciting!). Besides, GM makes plenty of boring cars too, Impala, Malibu, any Buick, and most of the Saturns. So why do people get so heated up? Go buy a camera or home theatre system. Guess where its made? Not in the US. Look around your home, how much do you own that's really "American Made"? Only the furniture probably. Try and buy only American made products and you'll not only need two jobs, you'll not have a lot of toys either. Buy what you feel comfortable buying, don't bash the other guy for his decisions, we each make decisions that someone else will have an issue with.

As already stated, no vehicle is manufactured in any one country anymore. The foreign name plates have to assemble in the US because they simply can't compete if they didn't. The American name plates have parts from all over the world and some are assembled in Mexico and elsewhere. Motor Trend even combined the COTY award to a single award because there are no longer any true foreign or domestic cars.

Reliability? As I said above, GM is no better or worse than Toyota. Todays cars, pretty much no matter who you buy them from, are pretty solid. It took Toyota 30 years to gain the popularity it has by just staying one step ahead of GM. Its going to take GM at least 10 years to gain back some of that loyalty.
Go with the G35, my dad has one and its the best car my family has owned. Greaty tod rive, no major problems, most inexpensive car in its class. New 07 has 306hp. They are AMAZING.

I heard this trivia question asked by one of the announcers during the race...
Chevrolet Monte Carlos and Dodge Avengers are assembled in Canada while the Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico. The Toyota ironically, is assembled here in the U.S....Can you say "egg on the face?"
LOL! funny stuff.

I seem to get into this arguement a lot with people. they are like "I love it when people have Support this country or w/e magnets on their hondas and toyotas" This is dumb, essentially when they are supporting this country. Yes, the money goes back to Japan, but the work is here. Whats wrong with a good global economy anyways?

if you want an unreliable car, get a german car. Biggest pieces of junk on the market.

[PROSPHOTO]

Thats priceless! And well sums up GMs (and other corporations) problems. GM has as much potentential to be the best as any other manufacturer has. They simply fail to look at the simple truth of what they need to fix. The fault is all thier own.

Sadly, this whole thread seems to have gone south. While I personally prefer GM vehicles, if someone chooses to buy a Toyota or Honda, so be it. I just like the look and feel of most of GM's cars and I always have. I also don't believe that Toyota's quality of the past 10 years is any better than GMs. In my opinion, half a dozen of one, 6 of another. A guy I work with bought a late 90s Camry that blew the head gaskets at 60k. Come to find out that was a little "hidden, unplublished" problem on some Camrys.

Still, I'm considering replacing my wife's Cadillac with a G35 (true, not a Toyota, but a whole lot more exciting!). Besides, GM makes plenty of boring cars too, Impala, Malibu, any Buick, and most of the Saturns. So why do people get so heated up? Go buy a camera or home theatre system. Guess where its made? Not in the US. Look around your home, how much do you own that's really "American Made"? Only the furniture probably. Try and buy only American made products and you'll not only need two jobs, you'll not have a lot of toys either. Buy what you feel comfortable buying, don't bash the other guy for his decisions, we each make decisions that someone else will have an issue with.

As already stated, no vehicle is manufactured in any one country anymore. The foreign name plates have to assemble in the US because they simply can't compete if they didn't. The American name plates have parts from all over the world and some are assembled in Mexico and elsewhere. Motor Trend even combined the COTY award to a single award because there are no longer any true foreign or domestic cars.

Reliability? As I said above, GM is no better or worse than Toyota. Todays cars, pretty much no matter who you buy them from, are pretty solid. It took Toyota 30 years to gain the popularity it has by just staying one step ahead of GM. Its going to take GM at least 10 years to gain back some of that loyalty.

Just curious...What Y/Model Cadillac are you planning on replacinghttp://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/question.gif

[mjr15197]

I found this link on another forum:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=192&sid=192&article=11981 (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&article=11981)

[wannabeSS]

I found this link on another forum:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&article=11981 (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&article=11981)

link doesnt work


And i assume the kinda cadilllac he has is a CTS

[CGK9]

I never liked the import cars primarily for their looks and then performance. As far as reliability I have never had any major problems with my American cars in over 20 years, even when the quality wasn't as good. The other day some notes came to light about Toyota saying they don't want to support the communities where they are like the domestic OE's do. That ALONE will ensure I NEVER buy one. Also, what did they do when 9/11 happened?? Nothing, while the domestics gave money and vehicles to the efforts for NY. The interesting thing is Toyota makes 80% of their operating profits from this country ALONE. They also manipulate their currency to undercut here and we do not tariff like they do on foreign imports. I do not work for a union either. I live here and until my check is paid for in YEN(which I hope it never is) then I will continue to buy from a domestic. At least they SUPPORT this country in a number of ways unlike the imports. My 2 cents.

Somebody stop this guy!! I agree 100%...As I read a lot of these posts here on this particular subject, it occurred to me that some of you should just sell your Chevy Trailblazer and move to Japan. :m2:

2007REDSS Good job, I couldn't have said it better ...

v/r

[Doc Brown]

Just curious...What Y/Model Cadillac are you planning on replacinghttp://www.aimoo.com/forum/images/messageicon/question.gif

I'm very sorry. I didn't see your question and then the thread faded away. I only just noticed because I saw the thread rise to the top again.

We have a '99 Catera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Catera). Reputed to be one of the worst Caddys ever made. While we've had our share of minor issues, it's been the most fun car I've ever owned. Its fast and handles like a dream. Best of all it suprises people who think it's a FWD econo-sedan. I get to drive it a few days a week to work. Most of the real problems were with the '97-'98s. I do most of my own work, so that's saved me a lot of money and agrivation. It has the same engine that's used in the CTS (C=Catera T=Touring S=Sedan, though Cadillac denies that) and the Saturn L series. It's also the same body platform as the GTO (Holden Monaro, Opel Omega), just a 4 door version .

[PROSPHOTO]

I also forgot I asked, Thanks :duh: They were nice cars, I was not a big fan of them though

Caddy changed the engine around 2004...they made a lot of improvements :yes:

I'm guessing that you did not trade it in yet :undecided I just saw the '08 CTS in the paper & it looks Awesome! I'd wait to till that comes out then make the comparison :yes:

[Sir Psycho SS]

I hope it puts a hurting into GM. Payback for all the **** they plopped out in recent years.



:rotfl:[/QUOTE]

[Frostee]

And in the first quarter of 2007:

Toyota has surpassed GM

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070424/Toyota_GM_070424/20070424?hub=TopStories

[Doc Brown]

And in the first quarter of 2007:

Toyota has surpassed GM

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070424/Toyota_GM_070424/20070424?hub=TopStories

Interesting. I personally think this is a good thing. It will keep GM from resting on its laurels, which they have done far too long. It puts them in a position of having to work harder to win the trust of thier customers, much like Toyota has been doing for many years. I would rather see GM be number 2 or 3 and build great cars, than see them be number 1 and build mediocre cars. They have the reputation of doing the later.

[Frostee]

Interesting. I personally think this is a good thing. It will keep GM from resting on its laurels, which they have done far too long. It puts them in a position of having to work harder to win the trust of thier customers, much like Toyota has been doing for many years. I would rather see GM be number 2 or 3 and build great cars, than see them be number 1 and build mediocre cars. They have the reputation of doing the later.

very true. sometimes a 'humbling' experience gets more reaction than an experience of sitting on top.

as long as they learn from it though. dont just entice people with better warranties and more bling, lower prices. actually make stuff that meets/surpasses the competition in quality and reliability.

[PROSPHOTO]

I think GM's quality is definitely up; It seems to me that their quality control is so much better now than it's been in the past...especially with new models :yes:
They also have finally come out with a full lineup of stylish vehicles at all brand levels :yes: I went to the NY auto expo last week and I must say...WOW, GM's got some nice looking cars :hail: I mean 95% of their products (about time)

Further, from the 1st quarter data, it looks like GM isn't losing sales to Toyota, but that Toyota's picking up sales from someone else's market :undecided

[Dave]

GM has become more efficient over the years and seems to be more friendly to the customers. Toyota has got to be losing some money with the poor Yen/USD rate though. But to their credit, they sell their cars around or above MSRP while GM is throwing out discounts.

[Frostee]

I think GM's quality is definitely up; It seems to me that their quality control is so much better now than it's been in the past...especially with new models :yes:
They also have finally come out with a full lineup of stylish vehicles at all brand levels :yes: I went to the NY auto expo last week and I must say...WOW, GM's got some nice looking cars :hail: I mean 95% of their products (about time)

Further, from the 1st quarter data, it looks like GM isn't losing sales to Toyota, but that Toyota's picking up sales from someone else's market :undecided

yeah, in that article, it does say that GM sales were/are up, but looks like Toyota has gone up more.

And like Dave said, GM is selling theirs off at discounts, where (here at least) I have never seen ANY import company offer any kind of discount. little incentives maybe, but usually no more than 500$-750$. Domestic cars have discounts of upwards 3K$ and then more incentives on top of that...

[rjgnwdc]

yeah, in that article, it does say that GM sales were/are up, but looks like Toyota has gone up more.

And like Dave said, GM is selling theirs off at discounts, where (here at least) I have never seen ANY import company offer any kind of discount. little incentives maybe, but usually no more than 500$-750$. Domestic cars have discounts of upwards 3K$ and then more incentives on top of that...

Victory Nissan in Chantilly Va. offering up to $3000 incentive on all their :yes: SUV's