Detailing Products - For those interested....

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

I just made a thread over on my detailing forum with a pictorial of my products, an inventory list (whittled down by ALOT just recently) and a tour of my garage/shop.

Those on slower connections be warned, this has 23 pictures in it:

Autopia - Product Collection and Garage Tour

Enjoy! I'll answer questions gladly :D

[Envoy Fan]

In my limited detailing experience only on my own cars, I have two votes here. ( :m2: )

Vote one for best product on your shelf goes to S100. If it is good enough for a Hog, it is good enough for my car. :D

Vote two goes to the product I'll never use on my car for a wash and goes to Dawn liquid. Great for dishes or APC in some areas, but won't use it on my paint finish. :eek:

Good assembly of supplies there, Charlie.

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

S100 is good, but has VERY limited durability. As the thread stated, I've whittled this down by a lot (you should've seen how it was before I chucked some stuff) and now it's only about half the size of what it was. I had alot of boutique brand stuff that either didn't work well, or I just didn't like as well as other stuff I use. S100, of all the paste carnaubas I've tried, has the best "look" and is very compatible for use as a topper over sealants like Zaino and NXT.

The dawn, well there's a reason that bottle is near full. I ONLY use that when I'm trying to strip waxes/etc. prior to a clay/compound/polish/seal/wax session. Otherwise I go for Z7, QEW, or NXT (not pictured because it's on order with some other stuff).

[Black Ice]

Ok maybe i missed something whats wrong with dawn, i have been washing my rides with it for yrs, and still do any insite as to the problem with it?
'

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

Ok maybe i missed something whats wrong with dawn, i have been washing my rides with it for yrs, and still do any insite as to the problem with it?
'

Oh crap. I knew I should've hidden the bottle of Dawn.

Dishwashing detergents such as dawn contain oils and grime removers which over time can and WILL dry out and dull your paint. They speed the oxidation process of the clear coat. While maybe you haven't realized there was something happening, I guarantee it was and/or is harming the paint.

That's exactly why, as I said, I only use it if I know I'll be doing a compound/polish/wax immediately after. Dawn may be great for doing the dishes, but that's where it should most definitely stay if you aren't using it very very discriminately. Car Wash Soaps such as Meguiar's Gold Class or NXT Wash aren't that much more expensive, and were designed specifically for automotive bodywork. They're a much safer alternative to dawn.

On a good note, you've given me a mission -- I'm going to make an article with a proper wash technique described and demonstrated.

Point being, DO NOT use Dawn unless you know exactly what you're doing! :m2:

[jauto98]

Dawn is a big NO-NO for car washing. Like 02EnvoySLE Guy, it will damage the paint. The only time I use Dawn is to remove any wax and crap before I apply a new coat of protectant. I personally use Zaino for my paint protectant as it does not leave any white, dried up residue (and it smells good!!! :o ) A good car washing solution that I like is the one from Zaino called "Z-7". It suds up great and the suds last for a long time, even when cleaning tires and wheels. Although it is a little pricy, it goes a long way as all you need is a cap full to fill a bucket. And remember Black Ice, no Dawn for your regular wash. ;) .

Jeff

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

Dawn is a big NO-NO for car washing. Like 02EnvoySLE Guy, it will damage the paint. The only time I use Dawn is to remove any wax and crap before I apply a new coat of protectant. I personally use Zaino for my paint protectant as it does not leave any white, dried up residue (and it smells good!!! :o ) A good car washing solution that I like is the one from Zaino called "Z-7". It suds up great and the suds last for a long time, even when cleaning tires and wheels. Although it is a little pricy, it goes a long way as all you need is a cap full to fill a bucket. And remember Black Ice, no Dawn for your regular wash. ;) .

Jeff

Yup, Z7 is good stuff. Check out the link if you haven't already, I have it in my arsenal as well.

[BlazinLTZ]

I use regular Dawn in the blue bottle only for stripping wax/etc. off
because it has Alkaline in it, which is one of the best wax strippers.

Call me crazy, but I use Pantene Pro-V 2-in-1 for Dry Hair for the soap.
I have used this on every car I have ever owned.
It helps retain the natural oils in the paint.

I can find some pictures of friends rides that have used Pantene.
When all is said and done, the paint will look amazing!

I also use Zaino products for almost all of my other needs in detailing.

I would post more about how I detail and keep my vehicles looking better
than new, but it is late and I have to work early.

[Black Ice]

Thanks guys, but give me something that i can find at a local parts store or something, walmart that type of place.

[jauto98]

Just about anything designed for cars would be good for a car washing solution. Anything but Dawn...

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

Thanks guys, but give me something that i can find at a local parts store or something, walmart that type of place.

Car Wash Soaps such as Meguiar's Gold Class or NXT Wash aren't that much more expensive, and were designed specifically for automotive bodywork. They're a much safer alternative to dawn.

:m2:....

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

I use regular Dawn in the blue bottle only for stripping wax/etc. off
because it has Alkaline in it, which is one of the best wax strippers.

Actually there's no such thing as having "alkaline in it" -- to go back to a basic chemistry lesson, the term alkaline is used to describe the pH level of a liquid substance. If something is "alkaline," the pH level is understood to be higher than 7; therefore giving it a "soapy" slick feel. Carnauba waxes generally dissolve when exposed to alkaline-pHed products.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/water/images/manage/qual/a3p7e-sm-rev.gif (http://www.ec.gc.ca/water/images/manage/qual/a3p7e.htm)

Most carwash soaps such as Zaino Z-7 are pH balanced, meaning they will register a pH of 7.0 when measured with laboratory equipment (I've actually done an experiment on this). Dawn on the other hand has a pH right around 10, if I am recalling correctly.

Call me crazy, but I use Pantene Pro-V 2-in-1 for Dry Hair for the soap.
I have used this on every car I have ever owned.
It helps retain the natural oils in the paint.

Yes, you're crazy. You also must be from the "older generation;" people who have owned cars since before clearcoats were common. Old School paint, and old school logic, tells us that paint has to "breathe" and has oils in it. With clearcoat paints such as the TB/Envoy have, there is NO such thing; the clearcoat does not contain oils, nor does it have to breathe. It's completely sealed. This is true of a vast majority of cars now days.

I can find some pictures of friends rides that have used Pantene.
When all is said and done, the paint will look amazing!

Yeah, it will look amazing. Just like if you used pledge furniture polish on your paint. The reason is, the stuff is LOADED with oils/conditioners and silicone. With modern clear coats, the easiest way to "cover up" the defects in your paint is to use a product like this. What it's actually doing, just like an auto-specific glaze does, is to "fill in" the little scratches and swirl marks in the clear. As soon as those fillers go away though, you'll see how nasty that paint really is.

This is why to do a truly professional job, it's best to use chemical and physical abrasives to remove or reduce the appearance of these swirls/scratches and then use a wash method to prevent the re-introduction of defects. Just hiding them temporarilly isn't going to work best in the long run. Realize that clear coat paints do not breathe, nor do they have "oils" like you refer to. When you use a product on the paint, it is in no way, shape, or form soaking up anything from those products. It is merely allowing them to sit atop the surface and protect it from UV damage. Your best bet will always be to do proper preparation instead of half-assing the job with fillers.

I also use Zaino products for almost all of my other needs in detailing.

I would post more about how I detail and keep my vehicles looking better
than new, but it is late and I have to work early.

By "almost all my other needs in detailing" do you mean you don't own any kind of chemical or physical abrasives for compounding and polishing? Again I would urge you to do a proper preparation of your surface prior to Zaino, instead of relying on Z5 to fill in the defects. Try going to a gas station late at night, and look at your paint under the lights. Remove all the Zaino from, say, half your hood. I bet you'll be surprised what you find.

Also keep in mind that by washing with Pantene, you're adding silicones and such which are incompatible with the Zaino system, not only reducing the durability of your existing coats, but also preventing future coats from bonding without utilizing a harsh removal procedure first.

The take-home message from all of this, folks, is that doing the job RIGHT the first time and then maintaining it properly will be much, much better in the long run than trying to hide problems until they become so big that a repaint is required.

I've been a professional detailer for 5 or so years now, and I've learned from some of the best in the business who detail for concours events and the like; and one of the biggest points they drove into my head is this:

"Successful Detailing is 90% process, 10% product. For process, success is 90% surface preparation, 10% sealant and wax. To properly understand both process and product -- the 'why' of detailing -- you must learn how each type of chemical or product works on a molecular level, as well as understand how paint works."

Believe me, you'll always be better off sticking to products designed for automotive use as a general rule; it isn't like buying good basic CAR detailing products is much more expensive than all those household products which may actually be doing more harm than good in the long run.

:m2:

[Black Ice]

Thanks for that bit of info :D , im not planning on doing that kind of detailing, i pay someone for that.. but i do keep it washed.

[XTREEME]

This is why to do a truly professional job, it's best to use chemical and physical abrasives to remove or reduce the appearance of these swirls/scratches and then use a wash method to prevent the re-introduction of defects. Just hiding them temporarilly isn't going to work best in the long run.

Is this what P21S is good for?

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

Is this what P21S is good for?

Which P21S product are you referring to? Obviously, the paste wax in the jar is just that -- a paste wax. Their "P21S Gloss Enhancing Paint Cleanser" is a chemical abrasive/cleaner, but it is VERY weak. That's only really beneficial if the vehicle is already 99% swirl free.

For heavily swirled surfaces I like to step up to either Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #9 "Swirl Remover 2.0" (currently I'm not stocking any of that) or lately I've been using a combination cleaner and polish that gets all the jobs done in one step: Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. One application of this via a random orbital buffer and it can tackle the majority of simple defects. Then your surface is ready for Zaino, Meguiar's NXT, P21S, or whatever your favorite top coat is.

Also just a hint to those who use or are in the market for P21S products: These are EXACTLY the same product as S100 wax/GEPC/etc. just with a different label, and they can be found at your local Harley Davidson dealer for much less $$ than P21S. For example, the paste wax is usually $21.95 for P21S (I think that's the price) whereas you can pick up the S100, exact same product, for $14.95 at the H-D dealer. :cool:

[jauto98]

Hey 02EnvoySLE Guy, noticed you have Zaino Z2 and Z5 in your arsenal. Got a recommendation on a swirl remover that will work with Z2? I find that Z5 does not work well on light to medium scratches on my dark colored GMC Sonoma. I've read some products don't work well with Zaino becuase of its composition. Thanks

Jeff

[XTREEME]

Also just a hint to those who use or are in the market for P21S products: These are EXACTLY the same product as S100 wax/GEPC/etc. just with a different label, and they can be found at your local Harley Davidson dealer for much less $$ than P21S. For example, the paste wax is usually $21.95 for P21S (I think that's the price) whereas you can pick up the S100, exact same product, for $14.95 at the H-D dealer. :cool:

NOW you tell me. :rolleyes:

Actually, I ordered a bottle of P21S Paint Cleanser a while back on a recommendation from a friend who really likes it. I haven't had a chance to use it yet with the lousy weather we've been having.

So what generic product matches up with this?

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

Hey 02EnvoySLE Guy, noticed you have Zaino Z2 and Z5 in your arsenal. Got a recommendation on a swirl remover that will work with Z2? I find that Z5 does not work well on light to medium scratches on my dark colored GMC Sonoma. I've read some products don't work well with Zaino becuase of its composition. Thanks

Jeff

Well here's a couple questions first:

1) Are you using ZFX with the Z5?
2) How old is your Z5?

I find that Z5's swirl hiding (for micro marring, at least) works much better with a newer bottle of Z5 that has been mixed with ZFX.

For light to medium "scratches" there are a couple things you could use. Both are pictured here:

http://www.hahn-on-the.net/professional/detailing/garage_products/IMG_0011.JPG

First is one available at your local autoparts store, 3M Perfect-It Swirl Mark Remover for Dark Colors. Keep in mind with this product that it does contain filler oils in addition to the abrasives. You'll want to work the product in thoroughly, and then use rubbing alcohol on a cotton swab or 100% cotton soft towel (or MicroFiber if you have one you can spare for this purpose) to remove the fillers/oils. This will leave a surface that is ready for Zaino application. (Though you may want to start with Z6 before heading for Z5+ZFX.)

An alternative product that is readily available is Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #9: Swirl Remover 2.0 -- this product also has fillers, but I find it harder to work with by hand than the 3M product. Of course, a random orbital buffer will make more effective use of either product. Note, this isn't pictured.

The other pictured product that I currently use is Meguiar's #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. This can be worked either by hand (if you've got lots of elbow grease to spare) or the machine. It doesn't have any fillers to speak of, though I still sometimes do the alcohol pre-wipe for peace of mind. Depending on the condition of your paint, you may get some "hazing" from this product; in which case you'll need to follow it with another polish (basically any of the over-the-counter 'polishes' will work, just try to stick to Meguiars or Mothers if you can for ease-of-use purposes).

Good luck, if you need any further advice feel free to ask; however I think seeing pictures in direct sunlight would help to diagnose a plan of attack for you.

Just remember, the only reason a product would interfere with Zaino is if there are residual oils and fillers left behind; rubbing/isopropyl alcohol should be able to remove those and make the surface Zaino-ready. Any prep product should be compatible if you're using this method.

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

So what generic product matches up with this?

P21S GEPC is most closely matched to Pinnacle Paint Cleansing Lotion -- but this isn't exactly an over the counter product either. Frankly I'd say go to the H-D dealer and get the S100 version since it's exactly identical anyway.

The other "cleaner" I recommend is either Meguiar's Deep Crystal System "Step 1 Cleaner" or in some cases Meguiar's Clear Coat Body Scrub. :D

[jauto98]

Well here's a couple questions first:

1) Are you using ZFX with the Z5?
2) How old is your Z5?

I find that Z5's swirl hiding (for micro marring, at least) works much better with a newer bottle of Z5 that has been mixed with ZFX.

For light to medium "scratches" there are a couple things you could use. Both are pictured here:

http://www.hahn-on-the.net/professional/detailing/garage_products/IMG_0011.JPG

First is one available at your local autoparts store, 3M Perfect-It Swirl Mark Remover for Dark Colors. Keep in mind with this product that it does contain filler oils in addition to the abrasives. You'll want to work the product in thoroughly, and then use rubbing alcohol on a cotton swab or 100% cotton soft towel (or MicroFiber if you have one you can spare for this purpose) to remove the fillers/oils. This will leave a surface that is ready for Zaino application. (Though you may want to start with Z6 before heading for Z5+ZFX.)

An alternative product that is readily available is Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #9: Swirl Remover 2.0 -- this product also has fillers, but I find it harder to work with by hand than the 3M product. Of course, a random orbital buffer will make more effective use of either product. Note, this isn't pictured.

The other pictured product that I currently use is Meguiar's #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. This can be worked either by hand (if you've got lots of elbow grease to spare) or the machine. It doesn't have any fillers to speak of, though I still sometimes do the alcohol pre-wipe for peace of mind. Depending on the condition of your paint, you may get some "hazing" from this product; in which case you'll need to follow it with another polish (basically any of the over-the-counter 'polishes' will work, just try to stick to Meguiars or Mothers if you can for ease-of-use purposes).

Good luck, if you need any further advice feel free to ask; however I think seeing pictures in direct sunlight would help to diagnose a plan of attack for you.

Just remember, the only reason a product would interfere with Zaino is if there are residual oils and fillers left behind; rubbing/isopropyl alcohol should be able to remove those and make the surface Zaino-ready. Any prep product should be compatible if you're using this method.


I use ZFX and Z-5 is like a year old. I bought the kit that contains about everything you need to start using Zaino. Its a good kit for someone just starting out with Zaino. From some websites like Autopia.org, I've heard that the clarity is lost if you use something not "compatible" with Zaino. I currently have a 1997 GMC Sonoma in Smoky Caramel and it has some minor scratches that are visible, epecially in direct sunlight. My Dark Gray 04 Trailblazer, I haven't had a chance to put a coat of protectant since I got it. Hopefully once all the pollen gets out of here in GA I will but several coats on there. Process I plan on using is a Dawn wash, clay, Z7 wash, Z2 with ZFX, Z6, Z2 with ZFX, Z6, etc.....

Also notice you have 303 protectant. Tried it out the first time last week and its some pretty good stuff. Doesn't give you that high gloss look that ArmorAll gives and doesn't feel oily when you touch it. But my god is that stuff expensive compared to ArmorAll. Only place I could find it locally was Ace Hardware.

[02EnvoySLE Guy]

I use ZFX and Z-5 is like a year old. I bought the kit that contains about everything you need to start using Zaino. Its a good kit for someone just starting out with Zaino. From some websites like Autopia.org, I've heard that the clarity is lost if you use something not "compatible" with Zaino. I currently have a 1997 GMC Sonoma in Smoky Caramel and it has some minor scratches that are visible, epecially in direct sunlight. My Dark Gray 04 Trailblazer, I haven't had a chance to put a coat of protectant since I got it. Hopefully once all the pollen gets out of here in GA I will but several coats on there. Process I plan on using is a Dawn wash, clay, Z7 wash, Z2 with ZFX, Z6, Z2 with ZFX, Z6, etc.....

Yeah. Like I said, the only way you're going to lose clarity is if you don't remove oils and fillers before applying the Zaino. If the paint is totally bare, you have nothing to worry about. Good luck with your process! I just got my new shipment with Z2-Pro and Z8 in yesterday; can't wait to try those out :cool:

Also notice you have 303 protectant. Tried it out the first time last week and its some pretty good stuff. Doesn't give you that high gloss look that ArmorAll gives and doesn't feel oily when you touch it. But my god is that stuff expensive compared to ArmorAll. Only place I could find it locally was Ace Hardware.

303 is a rather recent addition to my arsenal; but so far I really like it. Yes, it's very expensive, but from what I've found it's definitely worth it. I don't use it on much more than dashboards; other areas get the Meguiar's Natural Shine. I would highly recommend it over the armorall. The wipes and spray you see there usually only get used by me on wheel wells since it's a quick cheap way to blacken 'em up. If there's undercoating I hit them with the black trim spraypaint.

[jauto98]

Good god... seems like Zaino has been busy. I'd like to find out how Z-2 Pro and Z-8 fairs. Let us know what you find out. Thanks

[Matth3wJL]

Actually there's no such thing as having "alkaline in it" -- to go back to a basic chemistry lesson, the term alkaline is used to describe the pH level of a liquid substance. If something is "alkaline," the pH level is understood to be higher than 7; therefore giving it a "soapy" slick feel. Carnauba waxes generally dissolve when exposed to alkaline-pHed products.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/water/images/manage/qual/a3p7e-sm-rev.gif (http://www.ec.gc.ca/water/images/manage/qual/a3p7e.htm)

Most carwash soaps such as Zaino Z-7 are pH balanced, meaning they will register a pH of 7.0 when measured with laboratory equipment (I've actually done an experiment on this). Dawn on the other hand has a pH right around 10, if I am recalling correctly.



Yes, you're crazy. You also must be from the "older generation;" people who have owned cars since before clearcoats were common. Old School paint, and old school logic, tells us that paint has to "breathe" and has oils in it. With clearcoat paints such as the TB/Envoy have, there is NO such thing; the clearcoat does not contain oils, nor does it have to breathe. It's completely sealed. This is true of a vast majority of cars now days.



Yeah, it will look amazing. Just like if you used pledge furniture polish on your paint. The reason is, the stuff is LOADED with oils/conditioners and silicone. With modern clear coats, the easiest way to "cover up" the defects in your paint is to use a product like this. What it's actually doing, just like an auto-specific glaze does, is to "fill in" the little scratches and swirl marks in the clear. As soon as those fillers go away though, you'll see how nasty that paint really is.

This is why to do a truly professional job, it's best to use chemical and physical abrasives to remove or reduce the appearance of these swirls/scratches and then use a wash method to prevent the re-introduction of defects. Just hiding them temporarilly isn't going to work best in the long run. Realize that clear coat paints do not breathe, nor do they have "oils" like you refer to. When you use a product on the paint, it is in no way, shape, or form soaking up anything from those products. It is merely allowing them to sit atop the surface and protect it from UV damage. Your best bet will always be to do proper preparation instead of half-assing the job with fillers.



By "almost all my other needs in detailing" do you mean you don't own any kind of chemical or physical abrasives for compounding and polishing? Again I would urge you to do a proper preparation of your surface prior to Zaino, instead of relying on Z5 to fill in the defects. Try going to a gas station late at night, and look at your paint under the lights. Remove all the Zaino from, say, half your hood. I bet you'll be surprised what you find.

Also keep in mind that by washing with Pantene, you're adding silicones and such which are incompatible with the Zaino system, not only reducing the durability of your existing coats, but also preventing future coats from bonding without utilizing a harsh removal procedure first.

The take-home message from all of this, folks, is that doing the job RIGHT the first time and then maintaining it properly will be much, much better in the long run than trying to hide problems until they become so big that a repaint is required.

I've been a professional detailer for 5 or so years now, and I've learned from some of the best in the business who detail for concours events and the like; and one of the biggest points they drove into my head is this:

"Successful Detailing is 90% process, 10% product. For process, success is 90% surface preparation, 10% sealant and wax. To properly understand both process and product -- the 'why' of detailing -- you must learn how each type of chemical or product works on a molecular level, as well as understand how paint works."

Believe me, you'll always be better off sticking to products designed for automotive use as a general rule; it isn't like buying good basic CAR detailing products is much more expensive than all those household products which may actually be doing more harm than good in the long run.

:m2:

I'm trying to remove swirls and hairline scratches from my black TBSS its only on the lower half of the truck. What would you recommend doing so. I would perfer not to take it to the dealer or a collision shop. Thanks for your help!

[Envoy Fan]

A professional detailer would be the best to get out the hairline scratches and swirl marks.

Otherwise you can DIY, but I would suggest reading some threads from either
http://www.autopia.org/

or

http://www.detailcity.org/

Probably more info than you want to know, but these sites have a lot of experienced forum members.

[Matth3wJL]

A professional detailer would be the best to get out the hairline scratches and swirl marks.

Otherwise you can DIY, but I would suggest reading some threads from either
http://www.autopia.org/

or

http://www.detailcity.org/

Probably more info than you want to know, but these sites have a lot of experienced forum members.

I'm thinking mcquires scratchx would work? eh?