GTO Going Bye-Bye

[thecarbonman]

I understand the GTO is done. Anyone heard anymore on this subject? The GTO was the only car I would of bought if I was ever to buy a car. I guess Dodge may have something exciting for old men like me.

[Envoy Fan]

Hold on for the new Camaro. :D

[Dave]

The current GTO was going to have trouble meeting the new airbag standards. Besides a 7 cubic foot trunk wasn't that appealing, even for a coupe.

[APDMC6008]

I didn't see too many GTO's out and about anyways, maybe less than a dozen since they've been out.

[BLKBUTY]

GTO's are nice but I think the Camaro will be better:crazy:

[Juniorss]

The GTOs were only going to be a three year run from the beginning. I believe they even stopped the production of the Holden Monaros (our GTOs) over in Australia. On top of that like Dave said, there are new airbag regulations coming out and it isnt worth redesigning them on the GTO since its a low production car and they plan on making a new one along side the Camaro. Im holding onto my car until the second year of the new GTO or Camaro.

[jimmyjam]

I've heard they handle like a boat, nevermind that they look like a cavalier on steroids. yechh if it wasn't for the ls1 and ls2 engines i don't know how they'd manage to sell a single one

[Juniorss]

I've heard they handle like a boat, nevermind that they look like a cavalier on steroids.

I suggest you drive one before you repeat what someone else told you. Yea it wont keep up with an M3 in the corners but have you ever sat in one or driven one? I think your opinion on them might change. If I really want it to handle well, I can take $2,000 and do a whole suspension in it. Most people diss them until they actually sit in one and get a ride in it. And by the way, its the fastest look a like cavalier you will ever see. :yes:

[Dave]

Jimmyjam did bring up a pretty good point though on why they didn't sell too well though. Some people love the looks and just about everyone loves the power, but a lot of people think it is too bland looking. Some people don't like that it is built in Australia.

Personally, I like the old Goat a lot better and too me the current GTO didn't have the same effect when it came out.

That and a lot of people had a tough time paying $35k for a Cavilier look-a-like until the prices dropped and they sold for the mid $20s a couple months later.

The GTO was kind of screwed by GM though from the start. GM would never let it be as fast as a CTS V or a Vette.

[bostonsfavson]

There was a brief article in the May 2006 Road & Track concerning the demise of the GTO. GM blames it on "a stronger Aussie dollar and new airbag rules." As a former Firebird owner, I'm excited about the prospect of Pontiac rebadging the Camaro (if in fact they do build it) and releasing it as a Firebird :D

[Juniorss]

There was a brief article in the May 2006 Road & Track concerning the demise of the GTO. GM blames it on "a stronger Aussie dollar and new airbag rules." As a former Firebird owner, I'm excited about the prospect of Pontiac rebadging the Camaro (if in fact they do build it) and releasing it as a Firebird :D

Ive been told as of now there are no plans on a Firebird. They are going to make the Camaro to compete with the Mustang and the GTO to compete with the Challenger. They are only going to make 15,000-20,000 GTOs a year.

I also think that if GM would have left the GTO the way it looks in Australia, it would have sold a lot better. My friend did the conversion and it look so awesome. :eek:

[bostonsfavson]

Hey, I can always dream... I'm of course outrageously biased here, but I think that the '98-'02 Firebirds were are the sexiest cars of the last forty or so years (excluding Ferraris, Aston Martins, et al). The TransAms were a bit overstyled and too "loud" as far as I'm concerned, but I found the Firebirds to be very tasteful.

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive been told as of now there are no plans on a Firebird. They are going to make the Camaro to compete with the Mustang and the GTO to compete with the Challenger. They are only going to make 15,000-20,000 GTOs a year.

I also think that if GM would have left the GTO the way it looks in Australia, it would have sold a lot better. My friend did the conversion and it look so awesome. :eek:
Pics of the before and after please? I dont know the differences, but I imagine it must be profound otherwise it wouldnt be worth the time and money.

[blautens]

Lutz says here there will be a new GTO in 2008 as a 2009 model possibly based on the Zeta platform.

http://www.cleveland.com/autoshow/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1141216290309520.xml&coll=2

Personally I liked the sleeper look of the current GTO. Subtle is good. If someone wants boy racer looks, build another decal package like The Judge or like what Dodge is doing with the Daytona Charger.

[subiemutt]

+1 for the Camaro :D

[Highton]

Maybe GM is making room for the 2007 GNX? That car will whoop the GTO at current spec, HANDILY!! I want one of those - if they ever make em. :yes:

[GMtech45]

Word has it GTO is not done, just being built in the USA, diff. platform & 1 yr only.

[Juniorss]

Word has it GTO is not done, just being built in the USA, diff. platform & 1 yr only.

Thats not true at all. It wouldnt make sense financially to do it. Check out LS1gto.com for any info. Theres quite a few people on there that have some inside info.

Bostonsfavson, I happen to agree with you. I always loved the looks of the WS6 with that big hood :drool: The interior is the only thing that keeps me from buying one, and also how hard it is to install things like headers since the motor sits so far back. The motor on the GTO sits right out in the open.

[Juniorss]

Pics of the before and after please? I dont know the differences, but I imagine it must be profound otherwise it wouldnt be worth the time and money.

Heres my car




http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/Juniorss1220/wheels%20001800.jpg
Versus His car
http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/Juniorss1220/WheelsCV8Z%20jpeg.jpg

[ScarabEpic22]

Wow, that Holden spec kit really sets it apart from regular GTOs, plus no one in the states knows WTF a Holden is.:D :sleepy:

But, those are both sweet rides!!:yes: :drool:

[Juniorss]

Wow, that Holden spec kit really sets it apart from regular GTOs, plus no one in the states knows WTF a Holden is.:D :sleepy:

But, those are both sweet rides!!:yes: :drool:

Yup. He told me he went to a car show and was asked atleast once every 10 minutes "what kind of car is that?". :crazy: Hes also doing a full out conversion including the seats, badges, etc. But I guess when you run a body shop, it doesnt cost you anything to paint the car. :eek:

[Siege87]

yeah the Holden is sweet. its really too bad, foriegn cars are way cooler in a lot of ways. europe has some really great makes and models that will never be available over here. everyhting from some cool micros and compacts with huge engines to full supercars.

also, H1 is discontinued as well. very sad- the end of an era with that and the G now dead

[Mason]

Hold on for the new Camaro. :D


Thats what I'm doing.The wife totalled my 02 Z28 back in February and then went down and bought her a TB. I'm going to wait it out for the new Camaro.

[GMtech45]

Thats not true at all. It wouldnt make sense financially to do it. Check out LS1gto.com for any info. Theres quite a few people on there that have some inside info.

Bostonsfavson, I happen to agree with you. I always loved the looks of the WS6 with that big hood :drool: The interior is the only thing that keeps me from buying one, and also how hard it is to install things like headers since the motor sits so far back. The motor on the GTO sits right out in the open.

I work at a Pontiac dlr & that's the info we recieved....guess we were lied to...what a shame.

[04TBEXT]

I think GM desicrated the nameplate that started the American muscle car revolution. I came from those days of high performance Pontiacs and my last fun vehicle was a restored '69 GTO Judge.
This is another classic case of GM slapping some nameplates and decals on a vehicle...GM needs to wise up...today's buying public is well-educated and knows what they want.
As many have said, if the new GTO was "retro'd" like the current Ford Mustang, GTO sales would have taken off and with sales sky-rocketing, a solution for the air bag standards would be resolved.
GM blew it once again..Gee!..let's build big, fuel in-efficient trucks when fuel is hovering $3.00 a gallon....I could go on & on.
I heard a GM rep state with excitement that we should see the new Camaro in 18 months...LET ME REPEAT...18 months...Sad..very sad.

[traumadog]

Couple things (and yes, I own a new GTO):

1) The Monaro was well into it's life-cycle when the GTO was thought of, so I wouldn't expect alot of expensive engineering (other than converting to LHD) on the first model (Remember, GM did the same thing to the first Escalades, too.)

2) This was to be a limited-production model from the start. Holden had a max-capacity of about 18K units (as stated in 2003), and final new-GTO production is probably around 12K or so per year. Holden dropped it's V6 model (it was based on the old S/C 3800 motor anyway), so there would never be a volume-leader Tempest to compete with a V6 Mustang.

3) Oh, and if you think GM desecrated the nameplate, that was already done, in 1964. Remember, it was a Ferrari nameplate first.

4) And for those that carp about the styling, I'd say look at your real history... the GTO in 1964 was a big motor stuffed in your average Tempest with some fake scoops added.

So therefore, GM threw Pontiac a bone by making the Monaro a Pontiac - as opposed to a Chevrolet Lumina/Impala (which it is elsewhere besides Australia) - which meant making it look like the other Pontiacs then sold.

I personally like the "less-distinctive" styling. That, plus my V1, have kept me free from paying any additional taxes to the man. Hey, at least they didn't throw alot of plastic cladding on!

5) And finally, there are alot of Aussies who think the GTO's styling looks just fine...
http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0118.jpg
http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0126.jpg
http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0128.jpg
This is a 4-door Monaro conversion done in Australia last year.

[Dave]

There are a lot of GT cars also but when an American thinks of GTO most don't think of the Ferrari. The first Pontiac GTO set the world on its butt, the 2nd didn't quite live up to that reputation.

The current GTO is a nice car but like most GM cars it should have came out 5 years ago or at least the 2005 car as the 2004 and about $5k less. Within 6 months the fresh, new Mustang was kicking butt for a lot less.

GM said that the Aussies would only produce 3 years worth of GTOs and that is what happened. They mostly wanted the rights to the GTOs platform.

Styling and high price really hurt this GTO. Steathly is great but Pontiac wasn't too worried about the excitement part when it came to the exterior or the performance for 2004 GTOs.

[blautens]

Couple things (and yes, I own a new GTO):

1) The Monaro was well into it's life-cycle when the GTO was thought of, so I wouldn't expect alot of expensive engineering (other than converting to LHD) on the first model (Remember, GM did the same thing to the first Escalades, too.)

2) This was to be a limited-production model from the start. Holden had a max-capacity of about 18K units (as stated in 2003), and final new-GTO production is probably around 12K or so per year. Holden dropped it's V6 model (it was based on the old S/C 3800 motor anyway), so there would never be a volume-leader Tempest to compete with a V6 Mustang.

3) Oh, and if you think GM desecrated the nameplate, that was already done, in 1964. Remember, it was a Ferrari nameplate first.

4) And for those that carp about the styling, I'd say look at your real history... the GTO in 1964 was a big motor stuffed in your average Tempest with some fake scoops added.

So therefore, GM threw Pontiac a bone by making the Monaro a Pontiac - as opposed to a Chevrolet Lumina/Impala (which it is elsewhere besides Australia) - which meant making it look like the other Pontiacs then sold.

I personally like the "less-distinctive" styling. That, plus my V1, have kept me free from paying any additional taxes to the man. Hey, at least they didn't throw alot of plastic cladding on!

:iagree:

I think a lot of people forget about the first muscle cars...we remember things too fondly, I believe...

[04TBEXT]

I agree with you guys on some of your points. The Holden/GTO setup is a good one... LS/V-8 power, rear wheel drive, independent suspension.
The success of the new GTO was flat-out hampered by cookie-cutter, lack-luster styling. They started out with a potent chassis and flat out failed with appearance, pricing and marketing.
Appearance: I drive past a large Pontiac dealership everyday to and from work. A large amount of their new car inventory is displayed in front of the dealership and changed quite often. No matter how the vehicles are placed, I have a hard time distinguishing the GTO from the GP, from the Sunfire, etc. Conversely, the Soltice sticks out like a sore thumb...something to say for styling.
Pricing: At the current price, the GTO must compete in a pretty fiece market area. Not only with domestic, but also import market. As stated before, no gimmicks here...the buying market in now educated.
I grew up in the original GTO era and yes, the concept of big engine/cheap body sold. It sold because it was priced correctly (cheaply) and marketed correctly. Pontiac got the GTO into the start of the "pony market" (allegedly started by the Ford Mustang...shall we say a Ford Falcon with "fake" sheet metal...) and from this, created the "muscle car" era, all at affordable pricing. Affordable pricing remained important and was evidenced by the rubber floor-matted Road Runners, Pontiac T-37 etc. You were not forced to buy thousand dollar option packages, fully loaded vehicles, leather seating, etc.
Marketing: The pricing of the original muscle cars brought the young buyer to market. This concept, not new, brought him into the "carline" family with the intent of satisfying his auto purchase needs throughout his life cycle. Was the original GTO distinguishable from the Tempest?...most will say yes. It was DEFINITELY distinguishable from the Grand Prix and other Pontiac models. The "A" body was also distinguishable from it's fellow namplates, ie, Chevelle SS, Olds 442, Buick GS, etc.
Did Pontiac ever make any commericals about the new GTO...I'm sure they did, but me trying to remember serves as their effectiveness. Ever see the new Ford Mustang commercial about the kid and his Dad in an empty parking lot at night doin' burnouts?...
And to "carp" about styling... Flat out...the "retro" look is in...the "retro" look sells, especially when re-creating the era of cars past, but it's gotta be right and Pontiac flat out blew it with the current GTO...a well worn statement, but look at the new Mustang...my friend, a Dodge salesperson says people are coming into the dealership leaving deposits for the new Challenger, a vehicle currently in concept only.
Back then, I was anxiously awaiting, cash in hand, the new GTO. I still await. Let GM get the styling right and I'll be beating the showroom door down.
To all you current GTO owners..you have an awsome car and yes I would be proud to own one. GM had the opportunity to do it right, but instead rushed a product to the market poorly due to their own shortcomings and wants the customer to once again pay the price.
P.S. The use of GTO by Ferrari between 1962 and 1964 and again by Pontiac between 1964 and 1974 showed the heritage and the abilities of both companies..a definite tribute to these three letters. A Ferrari GTO was a Ferrari and the original GTOs were Pontiacs. The desicration started in 2004 when GM slapped the GTO nameplate on the Aussie. It's kinda like a kid fighting in the schoolyard to uphold his family name when he really does know who his dad is...

[Dave]

"Rushed to market" is the key in the last post. With 350hp and at $35k with limited features, the 04 GTO was screwed. Pontiac hoped we would run into the dealerships with our checkbooks in hand. My dealer said it will be $40k when the GTO first came out. A few months later they were dumping them for around $24k.

The 05 was more impressive for exterior styling and power but Pontiac was already playing catch up. The Mustang was kicking their butts in just about every department.

But they rushed it to market with bland styling. Not bad styling, just boring for a sports car that was supposed to live up to the GTO name. The interior looked fantastic and the power was great. Reliability is a concern (bad paint on the hood and rear axle noise seem to be the main complaints).

But GM only said the GTO would only be around for 3 years. Right then I decided that I will not own the current GTO. They let the Aussies build it for 3 years so they could get the rights to the platform.

It is a very nice car but there is so much out there for around $30k and it was already 5 years behind everyone else. I just hope the Camaro doesn't suffer from GM's poor timing and dealer gouging.

[04TBEXT]

I agree with Dave in his last post..thanks for the refinements. I come from the musclecar heyday and was born & raised on high performance Pontiacs. I don't want my position to be misconstrued in that I respect the new GTO...my bitch is with GM, their politics, mishandlings, market misses, etc.
Dave is correct is saying "bland" styling and the success of a new GTO may have been different if this Holden was given another name. I once again impress upon anyone from GM that wants to listen...a new GTO?...build an all-American, no-nonsense, fresh car, with the correct chassis, potent powerplant, sensible options, the CORRECT "retro" styling (i.e new Mustang, upcoming Challenger) and lastly, priced correctly...I believe this is what your typical high performance owners wants in todays' market.
As far as the new Camaro...I was apprised of a very recent meeting with some Chevrolet sales reps. who were extremely excited about the new 2006/7 product line. They seem to be surprised to learn with the price of gasoline their newly revamped Suburbans and Tahoes (DOD or not) are still know as "gas alcoholics" and are not selling. Besides the SS, they've done basically nothing to the Trailblazer line..how long can you sell the same Trailblazer?...the new Cobalt?...with the Cavalier gone, the customer sees the new Cobalt as a redesigned Cavalier....this conversation continued through most of the carline....
Their response to this (by reaffiming their excitement) is that the new Camaro will be out in 18 months!...18 months = a year and a half...were talking the the winter of 2007???
My point here is that GM is once again "wagging the dog", late to market, hopefully not with an "aged" product. And as far as price gouging?...watch out for the bars of soap...
P.S. I purposely watched American Idol last night just to see the Ford commerical with the kid, his Dad and the Mustang GT doin' burnouts. I agree with the dad.."now that's what I'm talkin' about!"

[Dave]

The GTO needs to be American made and somewhat resemble the Goat that changed the car world. I'm also from the muscle car era. A GTO from that era will always be worth something or even a lot more than what it was bought for. The current GTO will never increase in value. Since there should be over 50000 GTOs on the American roads, I expect to see more of them. I RARELY see one, except the Pontiac dealers have 5 on their lot.

I hope GM doesn't screw up with the Camaro but it may arrive too late. GM needs some imagination.

I wouldn't be surprised if they axe the TB/EN in a few years or make it to a crossover ute.

[traumadog]

I wouldn't be surprised if they axe the TB/EN in a few years or make it to a crossover ute.

There would be some that would argue that in the world of $4.00/gal gas, making the TB/Envoy a crossover in a few years would be a few years too late.

In any case, GM has had a long history of screwing up projects, then getting them right just before killing them (e.g. '87 Fiero GT, '96 Impala SS). I don't think that history will change anytime soon.

[Derelict]

Jimmyjam did bring up a pretty good point though on why they didn't sell too well though. Some people love the looks and just about everyone loves the power, but a lot of people think it is too bland looking. Some people don't like that it is built in Australia.

Personally, I like the old Goat a lot better and too me the current GTO didn't have the same effect when it came out.

That and a lot of people had a tough time paying $35k for a Cavilier look-a-like until the prices dropped and they sold for the mid $20s a couple months later.

The GTO was kind of screwed by GM though from the start. GM would never let it be as fast as a CTS V or a Vette.

A cavilier it was not, it was a Holden Monaro rebadged, with a ls1 in 04 and ls2 in 05/06. The care handled pretty damn well considering the weight, the interior was sweet quality, as well as seating four people VERY comfortable. Not as fast as a vette? Mine topped out stock at 164 mph, I did it multiple times, the weight kept it very steady at those speeds... I had it a year, but the TBSS was much more practical. (awd) and still a tall fun-factor. I do miss the GTO though... The looks were not for everyone, that is agreed. Anyone who attempts to compare it to the classic GTO is missing the point, it's was intended as a Euro-coupe sports car, not a retro-regurgitation, like the Stang. btw, my 04 GTO would kick the snot out of ANY classic GTO in every performance connected fashion..

[Dave]

Any classic GTO? I would doubt it. An 05 would have a better chance but an 04?

I wouldn't compare a GTO to a Vette. You are 600 lbs heavier to start with. 164 is great, but where can you legally use it. The Vette would be a few seconds ahead even if they did have the same top speed. From a stop light or in the corners, the GTO would look like a honda Civic (non-modded) when you compare it to a modern Vette.

There are tons of European sports cars in the market, however there isn't a single retro GTO. That is where they lost out.

Well the GTO is history again. I heard it may come back with the Camaro a couple years from now and built in Australia again. Sometimes GM never learns.

I know it was a rebadged Holden. But it does resemble a Cavilier in the looks department.

[VTODD]

Any classic GTO? I would doubt it. An 05 would have a better chance but an 04?

Are you kidding us here or what? Go to a new GTO forum and check out the ET list.....there are PLENTY of stock 04 (LS1) GTO's running in the very low 13's with a good driver and solid traction. LOL, and I would like to see a 64' GTO trying to keep up with a new GTO on a road course......

For performance, hands down, the new GTO's win. I was not growing up through the "real" GTO era, but I have been around more than enough orginal "real" GTO's to know some performance comparables.

Oh, and there is no better chance with the 05 GTO......it would rip any old GTO's ******* clean out stock for stock. You likely have concluded now that I owned a 05 GTO at one time. I have raced the "real" GTO's on the street, and it just wasn't even a competition.

Disclaimer - I actually am very fond of the "real" GTO's. I would very much like to own one sooner than later.

I wouldn't compare a GTO to a Vette. You are 600 lbs heavier to start with. 164 is great, but where can you legally use it. The Vette would be a few seconds ahead even if they did have the same top speed. From a stop light or in the corners, the GTO would look like a honda Civic (non-modded) when you compare it to a modern Vette.

Wow, just WOW. I cannot understand how you compare a GTO to a Honda Civic relative to a vette. Thats just utterly stupid. Yea, given the weights and power, a C6 vette is gonna win on paper in every category against the GTO. But, a modern vette includes the C5's as well.......go to any new GTO forum and look at the kill sections. I think you will be unpleasently suprised to find numerous C5's and even C6's (inadequate drivers) ran down by the new GTO's. Get your facts straight.


There are tons of European sports cars in the market, however there isn't a single retro GTO. That is where they lost out.

I am somewhat biased....ya, you know that by now, but its 2006 isn't it? I like the way the new Challenger and Camaro looks (and I would gladly purchase one), but I don't necessarily expect it to look like that. Whats with all this "retro" crap??? Its 2006 not 1964!!!! I find the 04-06 GTO's to be a very accurate representation of what the GTO's should look like 40 years later. I guess we should all be watching TV on the good ole' fashioned console black-and-whites too, huh? :undecided

Well the GTO is history again. I heard it may come back with the Camaro a couple years from now and built in Australia again. Sometimes GM never learns.

I am a die-hard domestic lover, but the Aussies did a damn good job making a solid all around sports car. My humble opinion of course.

I know it was a rebadged Holden. But it does resemble a Cavilier in the looks department.

Funny, I never thought the GTO looked like a Cavilier........subjective, without saying.

Todd

[Derelict]

[/color]

Todd

Thank You Devil Dog, you put my exact thoughts to paper..
I'm only glad we were able to experience them!
That new Camaro should be HOT.:D

[Atlas]

Someone mentioned the Camaro... I read something interesting today in the current issue of Motor Trend:

"Like the Ford Mustang convertible, the open-top Camaro will probably makes its debut some months after the coupe goes on sale in 2006."

2006!!!!!! Was this a typo or is this thing slated to come out soon???

[Juniorss]

Someone mentioned the Camaro... I read something interesting today in the current issue of Motor Trend:

"Like the Ford Mustang convertible, the open-top Camaro will probably makes its debut some months after the coupe goes on sale in 2006."

2006!!!!!! Was this a typo or is this thing slated to come out soon???

Typo I think. I could see the Camaro coming out in about a year from now as an 08 model. Also there is a good chance that the Camaro and GTO will be built in the US and GM exporting the Holdens to Australia

[Dave]

You can always look at GTO.com or whatever and find better "stock" times. And yes a crappy C6 driver might indeed lose to a GTO or he might not have been racing in the first place. I know if I was driving a C6, I wouldn't give a crap about a GTO. People think they are racing until the other car decides to apply full power.

Yes some of us old farts really love the old GTO styling and that it was American made. I'm hoping the modern day sports car can keep up with a car built over 40 years ago and they should be able to out run it in the corners. The fact that they are 4 decades apart with a limited performance increase if any shows how good the original GTO was. After 40 years, I would expect the new GTO to kill the old GTO like it was a "civic".

Retro sells!!! Look at all of the fools that dropped big bucks on a T-bird before people lost interest in it. The Hemi is another example, Charger, Challenger, Mustang. They all sell pretty good.

The fact is that if the GTO was popular, Pontiac would have no trouble selling the 18,000 cars a year for close to MSRP. And they wouldn't have axed it for 07.

I doubt most "old" GTO drivers really care if a new GTO can beat them anyways. They are very different cars that don't resemble each other at all and that is my point. GM rebadged a Holden Monaro, changed a few parts on it and thought all of us "old farts" would run down to the Pontiac dealer with our wallets out. I actually like the GTO as a car but not with the name that GM gave it.

We can all only pray that GM doesn't screw up with the Camaro/GTO or whatever will come out a few years from now. They better plan on competing against the 2008/09 Mustang instead of the 2005/06 version.

The current GTO will be gone and I'm sure it won't be missed though. Heck if you want one, there is still 4 left at the local Pontiac dealers. They have been sitting there for months.

[Atlas]

The current GTO will be gone and I'm sure it won't be missed though. Heck if you want one, there is still 4 left at the local Pontiac dealers. They have been sitting there for months.

I actually like the present GTO, and you are right, my local dealer has six sitting on his lot...

[VTODD]

You can always look at GTO.com or whatever and find better "stock" times. And yes a crappy C6 driver might indeed lose to a GTO or he might not have been racing in the first place. I know if I was driving a C6, I wouldn't give a crap about a GTO. People think they are racing until the other car decides to apply full power.

Just hope the Goat isn't tuned......

Yes some of us old farts really love the old GTO styling and that it was American made. I'm hoping the modern day sports car can keep up with a car built over 40 years ago and they should be able to out run it in the corners. The fact that they are 4 decades apart with a limited performance increase if any shows how good the original GTO was. After 40 years, I would expect the new GTO to kill the old GTO like it was a "civic".

That really is just a ridiculous statment. By your thinking the new GTO should have a 600 H.P. LS9 and run a 11 second 1/4 mile and still be streetable to the normal public (and under 30k:confused: )......its a GTO, not the ZO6 Vette. Think back to what the GTO was and when it all began. (If you need a lesson, there is plenty of GTO history on the web) Wasn't the orginal GTO just a plain looking car (Le Mans/Tempest) with a hot engine stuffed in it? I thought so. Exactly what the new GTO is. A plain looking car with a power maker under the hood.


Why before 2005, did Mustangs look nothing like the original (more like a Taraus actually :))? Why did F-Bodies progress in design? Look at the GTO....Would people in 1969 have wanted another 1964 GTO as a 1969 model?

What does a GTO look like? The 1974 GTO looked like a hot Ventura with stickers....is that a GTO?


The idea is progression. Albeit, I would buy a retro GTO/Camaro too, its just that I don't EXPECT them to be retro.

Retro sells!!! Look at all of the fools that dropped big bucks on a T-bird before people lost interest in it. The Hemi is another example, Charger, Challenger, Mustang. They all sell pretty good.

The fact is that if the GTO was popular, Pontiac would have no trouble selling the 18,000 cars a year for close to MSRP. And they wouldn't have axed it for 07.

Actually, the new GTO sold well. Your local dealership with an abundance of GTO's on the lot does not reflect the rest of the Pontiac dealerships. When I traded mine in, it sold the very next day at a Chevy dealership......:undecided

GM knew coming into the release of the current 04-06 Goats that the cars would not meet the safety standards after the 2006 model year. GM KNEW it was NOT going to be for sale in 2007!!!


I doubt most "old" GTO drivers really care if a new GTO can beat them anyways. They are very different cars that don't resemble each other at all and that is my point. GM rebadged a Holden Monaro, changed a few parts on it and thought all of us "old farts" would run down to the Pontiac dealer with our wallets out. I actually like the GTO as a car but not with the name that GM gave it.

Again, think 1964......Tempest rebadged with some fake hood scoops and a few other part changes.

We can all only pray that GM doesn't screw up with the Camaro/GTO or whatever will come out a few years from now. They better plan on competing against the 2008/09 Mustang instead of the 2005/06 version.

The current GTO will be gone and I'm sure it won't be missed though. Heck if you want one, there is still 4 left at the local Pontiac dealers. They have been sitting there for months.


Todd
.

[Atlas]

If the GTO was selling well, they wouldn't have axed it mate...

[VTODD]

If the GTO was selling well, they wouldn't have axed it mate...

Hey mate, why don't you try and read some GM insider. The mother lovin' GTO was slotted to only be sold in the 2004-2006 model years. GM knew this even before the 04 GTO was for sale! The 04-06 GTO was more or less a feeler car for the future.

Actually, if you would have taken the time to read my previous post, you would have noticed that I already said that.

Todd

[Atlas]

Hey mate, why don't you try and read some GM insider. The mother lovin' GTO was slotted to only be sold in the 2004-2006 model years. GM knew this even before the 04 GTO was for sale! The 04-06 GTO was more or less a feeler car for the future.

Actually, if you would have taken the time to read my previous post, you would have noticed that I already said that.

Todd

Hmm, that's funny mate, because everything I've seen and read was that the GTO was to be redesigned with its own sheetmetal for the 2008/2009 model year and the current model would have sold until the new GTO came out.... And please, I would like to see proof of your claim that GM said they were only going to build it for three years...

[traumadog]

Umm - AFAIK, the GTO was a limited-run model from the get-go.

Chief engineer Bob Reuter says the company plans to sell the $33,000 GTO for just three model years at the rate of 18,000 per year. After that, who knows?

Straight from the December 2003 Car and Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto-page3.html

[Atlas]

Umm - AFAIK, the GTO was a limited-run model from the get-go.



Straight from the December 2003 Car and Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto-page3.html

Thank you, mate, I didn't know that... But then why did they put into action a plan for the new GTO with its own sheetmetal and then kill it???
Plus, it did sell poorly: GM wanted to sell 18,000 per year and ended up selling 14,000 in 2004 and 11,000 in 2005...

[VTODD]

Umm - AFAIK, the GTO was a limited-run model from the get-go.



Straight from the December 2003 Car and Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7360/pontiac-gto-page3.html

Thanks traumadog. I was looking for that. :)

[VTODD]

Quoted from some review website I found a while back. I like this.

"Okay. Listen up people, 'cause we're only going to say this once: who cares if this car doesn't look like an old GTO? It was a good-looking car from the factory, and now those damned overweight "hot rod fans" in their Hawaiian shirts have ruined the car because it doesn't look "old" enough. Listen here, gramps: you're gonna drive this car the way it is and you're gonna like it, damn it! It's got a 400 horsepower 6.0 liter V8, a pretty decent suspension, it actually looks good, and you're gonna complain about it? You old guys should all be ashamed of yourselves. Don't look at it as "trying to be a GTO". Ignore the name and accept it for what it is: a four-seat Corvette."

[traumadog]

Thank you, mate, I didn't know that... But then why did they put into action a plan for the new GTO with its own sheetmetal and then kill it???
Plus, it did sell poorly: GM wanted to sell 18,000 per year and ended up selling 14,000 in 2004 and 11,000 in 2005...

My understanding was that the Holden plant couldn't handle more than 18K/year with their own domestic sales - which is what their ad execs then quoted.

But on the flip side, GM did a craptastic job of promoting the car - this despite having a two-year hiatus of a RWD V8 coupe. In any case, I bet the bean-counters handicapped Lutz about the GTO because of all the conversion issues it needed to get to the USDM (such as making it LHD).

[Atlas]

Quoted from some review website I found a while back. I like this.

"Okay. Listen up people, 'cause we're only going to say this once: who cares if this car doesn't look like an old GTO? It was a good-looking car from the factory, and now those damned overweight "hot rod fans" in their Hawaiian shirts have ruined the car because it doesn't look "old" enough. Listen here, gramps: you're gonna drive this car the way it is and you're gonna like it, damn it! It's got a 400 horsepower 6.0 liter V8, a pretty decent suspension, it actually looks good, and you're gonna complain about it? You old guys should all be ashamed of yourselves. Don't look at it as "trying to be a GTO". Ignore the name and accept it for what it is: a four-seat Corvette."

I totally agree, mate... I love the current GTO, and well be buying one in the near future, but the fact is, they underperformed as to GM expected them to sell, and that was the reason theyaxed the future model... By the by, the GTO's depreciation is amazing, although it has leveled off lately... I remember six months ago when I was shopping for a new car that used 2005 GTO's were going for $22,000 around the VA area with not many miles...

[Atlas]

My understanding was that the Holden plant couldn't handle more than 18K/year with their own domestic sales - which is what their ad execs then quoted.

But on the flip side, GM did a craptastic job of promoting the car - this despite having a two-year hiatus of a RWD V8 coupe. In any case, I bet the bean-counters handicapped Lutz about the GTO because of all the conversion issues it needed to get to the USDM (such as making it LHD).

Have you guys seen the cars my countrymen make??? All the HSV's should be sold in America... Imagine a real Impala SS and a new El Camino SS... Man I want to go home so bad...

[traumadog]

I totally agree, mate... I love the current GTO, and well be buying one in the near future, but the fact is, they underperformed as to GM expected them to sell, and that was the reason theyaxed the future model... By the by, the GTO's depreciation is amazing, although it has leveled off lately... I remember six months ago when I was shopping for a new car that used 2005 GTO's were going for $22,000 around the VA area with not many miles...

Well, all of that depended on how it sold in the first place (again, crappy GM marketing). There are plenty of tales on the GTO forums about NEW '05 buyers who got theirs for around $25k - so a depreciation from that isn't as bad after all.

Have you guys seen the cars my countrymen make??? All the HSV's should be sold in America... Imagine a real Impala SS and a new El Camino SS... Man I want to go home so bad...

LOL - it's funny what some of your mates are doing... I've seen a couple Commodore-to-GTO conversions posted, just for giggles - and I agree with you in the end.

[VTODD]

Have you guys seen the cars my countrymen make??? All the HSV's should be sold in America... Imagine a real Impala SS and a new El Camino SS... Man I want to go home so bad...

I have seen that Holden Ute' (El Camino) before. I very much hope that GM brings that design over from Holden.

Todd

[Atlas]

Well, all of that depended on how it sold in the first place (again, crappy GM marketing). There are plenty of tales on the GTO forums about NEW '05 buyers who got theirs for around $25k - so a depreciation from that isn't as bad after all.

You are right sir... I agree with the marketing, they need to do better in that department... Expand the sales TV ads from just Corvettes and Hummers... I have yet to see a commercial with the TB SS in the spotlight... There was that one ad Chevy did about all the SS's they were going to make, and they did show it then, but it was a very far away shot...

As for my mates: Even Ford (whom I loathe) makes some badass vehicles down under... Ford Falcon GT anyone???

I have seen that Holden Ute' (El Camino) before. I very much hope that GM brings that design over from Holden.

Todd

Just for future reference, it is called the Maloo... Cheers, mate...

[traumadog]

You are right sir... I agree with the marketing, they need to do better in that department... Expand the sales TV ads from just Corvettes and Hummers... I have yet to see a commercial with the TB SS in the spotlight... There was that one ad Chevy did about all the SS's they were going to make, and they did show it then, but it was a very far away shot...

Of course, the big buzz-word now is "fuel economy", and you have to carefully market what many people will see as a big gas-guzzling V8 SUV today... which is why GM is probably quiet about it (though I still think there's a way to market it properly).

[Atlas]

Of course, the big buzz-word now is "fuel economy", and you have to carefully market what many people will see as a big gas-guzzling V8 SUV today... which is why GM is probably quiet about it (though I still think there's a way to market it properly).

Very true, but you'd think they would have put one out about the TB SS after the JGC SRT8 commercial... Gee, thats downright logical to do... No wonder they didn't do it...

[traumadog]

FWIW - here are some shots of a Commodore conversion:

http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0110.jpg
http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0113.jpg
http://www.hosting.felonyv8.com/6/100_0126.jpg

[Atlas]

See, they could import that (Commodore) to the States and sell it as the Impala SS... I believe they run sub 5 0-60 times and low 13 1/4's(the HSV variant of course)...

[traumadog]

See, they could import that (Commodore) to the States and sell it as the Impala SS... I believe they run sub 5 0-60 times and low 13 1/4's(the HSV variant of course)...

Actually, I hear that it'd be a base for what they were gonna call the Pontiac G8 (Bonneville) instead.

[Atlas]

Actually, I hear that it'd be a base for what they were gonna call the Pontiac G8 (Bonneville) instead.

I hadn't heard that, that is very good news... However, I dislike the calling the Bonneville replacement a G8... How about calling it the Le Mans or something like that???

[Dave]

Hey mate, why don't you try and read some GM insider. The mother lovin' GTO was slotted to only be sold in the 2004-2006 model years. GM knew this even before the 04 GTO was for sale! The 04-06 GTO was more or less a feeler car for the future.

Actually, if you would have taken the time to read my previous post, you would have noticed that I already said that.

Todd

The GTO was still scrapped and somehow even GM would find a way to sell them in 07 if they were making money.

Four-seater vette? Please! Don't tell me a stock GTO can keep up with a stock C6 Vette if you take the driver out of the question. Yes the GTO can be modded, so can the Vette. A modded Civic could beat the GTO or a Vette. I don't understand what you are trying to say besides a modded car can beat an unmodded car.

The C6 Vette can easily get into the mid 12s. Any one quoting a stock GTO can do that needs to check their watch or be thankful their GTO is way above average. And I don't think many people will say "Look, there is a new GTO." but they will probably notice a Vette.

At $35k the GTO has to appeal to us "gramps" because a 20 year old that could afford it would hate paying insurance on it. But GM also let the Camaro/Trans Am die for a few years so maybe they figured we would all buy the GTO instead.

The Aussies got a lot of their cars right and the Monaro is a fine car and that is what the current GTO is. If it was a "test" then GM really screwed up by using one of their best names for a car that wasn't meant to be around in a few years.

An LS9 Camaro or GTO would be nice but GM will probably still be playing catch up. I wouldn't be surprised if the base Mustang GT is putting out 500hp by then and probably for thousands less.

By the way, I cruised through GM searching for GTOs. There is around 6 here in Northern Utah (not counting Salt Lake City). I figured they would sell better in a warmer climate so I checked Albuquerque, NM. One dealer had 9 GTOs so I quit looking. They are not selling that good and probably is one example of why GM is having problems.

And you should only be worried about your car's depreciation if you are selling your car. $25k at a dealer means they bought it from some poor guy for around $20k.

Ok, go ahead and quote me away!

[VTODD]

The GTO was still scrapped and somehow even GM would find a way to sell them in 07 if they were making money.

Four-seater vette? Please! Don't tell me a stock GTO can keep up with a stock C6 Vette if you take the driver out of the question. Yes the GTO can be modded, so can the Vette. A modded Civic could beat the GTO or a Vette. I don't understand what you are trying to say besides a modded car can beat an unmodded car.

The C6 Vette can easily get into the mid 12s. Any one quoting a stock GTO can do that needs to check their watch or be thankful their GTO is way above average. And I don't think many people will say "Look, there is a new GTO." but they will probably notice a Vette.

My wife and I both say "Look a new GTO"......never a Vette though unless its a new Z06. I counted yesterday (yes I actually did) and I saw 13, yep you read it, a bakers dozen, Vettes on the road. Maybe its just me, but I like the more rare cars (less then 50k total :) ) Oh, and when I owned my 05 GTO, I had more people asking and pointing it out than I did any other vehicle I have ever owned.

Disclamier-I actually like Vettes very much.

At $35k the GTO has to appeal to us "gramps" because a 20 year old that could afford it would hate paying insurance on it. But GM also let the Camaro/Trans Am die for a few years so maybe they figured we would all buy the GTO instead.

The Aussies got a lot of their cars right and the Monaro is a fine car and that is what the current GTO is. If it was a "test" then GM really screwed up by using one of their best names for a car that wasn't meant to be around in a few years.

An LS9 Camaro or GTO would be nice but GM will probably still be playing catch up. I wouldn't be surprised if the base Mustang GT is putting out 500hp by then and probably for thousands less.

By the way, I cruised through GM searching for GTOs. There is around 6 here in Northern Utah (not counting Salt Lake City). I figured they would sell better in a warmer climate so I checked Albuquerque, NM. One dealer had 9 GTOs so I quit looking. They are not selling that good and probably is one example of why GM is having problems.

And you should only be worried about your car's depreciation if you are selling your car. $25k at a dealer means they bought it from some poor guy for around $20k.

Ok, go ahead and quote me away!

Ok, I will.......why don't you just go ahead and close this thread.....its a waste responding to your overly subjective blabber. Oh, and one last laugh....HAHAHA a 500 H.P. Mustang GT. You really are something else, Dave :undecided



Todd
.

[VTODD]

I am going to quote this one more time, just for you Dave....


"Okay. Listen up people, 'cause we're only going to say this once: who cares if this car doesn't look like an old GTO? It was a good-looking car from the factory, and now those damned overweight "hot rod fans" in their Hawaiian shirts have ruined the car because it doesn't look "old" enough. Listen here, gramps: you're gonna drive this car the way it is and you're gonna like it, damn it! It's got a 400 horsepower 6.0 liter V8, a pretty decent suspension, it actually looks good, and you're gonna complain about it? You old guys should all be ashamed of yourselves. Don't look at it as "trying to be a GTO". Ignore the name and accept it for what it is: a four-seat Corvette."

:yes: You should think about getting a performance vehicle.

[Dave]

Actually I had a performance vehicle. Matter of fact a few of them. Here are the most recent. 2005 CTS V, 2000 Grand Prix GTP, 1996 Trans Am. Somehow I bet the V is more rare than the GTO, but they didn't have trouble selling the ones they did build.

Don't get your feathers a little ruffled because someone mentions something bad about the GTO. Since you are so good quoting my posts, I'm sure you can find my post where I said that I actually liked the car.

So what am I being subjective about? Not liking a car's name? Then I'm guilty. Keep on comparing a GTO to a new Vette, well at least to the end of this model year.

PS I don't close threads due to a disagreement but I will gladly respond to obvious errors (GTO can out run a C6 Vette). If you don't like "gramps" opinion then take it as an opinion. Generally, I grew up with a different GTO, one that did change the auto industry. One actually built in NA (Not that the Aussies can't build great cars). IMO, the current GTO is still a Monaro and shouldn't be called a GTO.

[Atlas]

(Not that the Aussies can't build great cars). IMO, the current GTO is still a Monaro and shouldn't be called a GTO.

That's right, you bite your tongue when you talk about Team Auz:D :D ... And I could not agree more with the naming issue... They should have named the imported Monaro, the Monaro and left it at that... Also, I really do like the GTO's but could not justify paying that much money for what the car was... Others, methinks, thought the same way which led to stopping of production...

[traumadog]

Somehow I bet the V is more rare than the GTO, but they didn't have trouble selling the ones they did build.

Actually, you're right. I can't find a 2006 CTS-V within 100 miles of me, while I can find 41 GTO's within the same space.

Then again, the market for the CTS-V is alot smaller - and is borne out by the sales figures too.
MY 2004 CTS-V total = 2461, retail = 2454, fleet = 7.
MY 2005 CTS-V total = 3508, retail = 3483, fleet = 25
(This is compared to ~11-14K for the GTO)

Likewise, the CTS-V takes a depreciation hit in one year, dropping from $51K to $38k (KBB good condition 2005) in one year, which is a comparable ~25-30% depreciation in one year for both cars.

On the other hand, would GM have been better off calling it a Monaro? That name has little recognition in the US, while the other name it's under (Lumina SS) had already been discarded, and is a Chevy brand anyway.

As Pontiac was going down the tubes when the decision was made, they decided to give the Monaro to Pontiac. Unfortunately, they didn't complete the marketing effort to support calling it a GTO.

In any case, they've already stopped making the just-past-generation Monaro after the '05 year, and didn't have plans to keep this line going. As for making the next GTO, that plan will depend on how the production for the Camaro works out (and remember, the last generation of that car was imported too.)

[Dave]

Actually, you're right. I can't find a 2006 CTS-V within 100 miles of me, while I can find 41 GTO's within the same space.

Then again, the market for the CTS-V is alot smaller - and is borne out by the sales figures too.

(This is compared to ~11-14K for the GTO)

Likewise, the CTS-V takes a depreciation hit in one year, dropping from $51K to $38k (KBB good condition 2005) in one year, which is a comparable ~25-30% depreciation in one year for both cars.

On the other hand, would GM have been better off calling it a Monaro? That name has little recognition in the US, while the other name it's under (Lumina SS) had already been discarded, and is a Chevy brand anyway.

As Pontiac was going down the tubes when the decision was made, they decided to give the Monaro to Pontiac. Unfortunately, they didn't complete the marketing effort to support calling it a GTO.

In any case, they've already stopped making the just-past-generation Monaro after the '05 year, and didn't have plans to keep this line going. As for making the next GTO, that plan will depend on how the production for the Camaro works out (and remember, the last generation of that car was imported too.)

Trust me! I know about the hit a CTS V takes in its first year, just like most Cadillacs.

KBB is even high for both cars because of the deals GM was giving to sell new cars and the market isn't that big for either car.

A lot of GM cars are built north of the border. Eventually the customer will pay the shipping charges, either by a short truck ride or a LONG boat ride.

GM did screw up the marketing on the GTO. $35k for a 350hp car in 2004 with bland looks pretty much killed it.

[VTODD]

Actually I had a performance vehicle. Matter of fact a few of them. Here are the most recent. 2005 CTS V, 2000 Grand Prix GTP, 1996 Trans Am. Somehow I bet the V is more rare than the GTO, but they didn't have trouble selling the ones they did build.

Don't get your feathers a little ruffled because someone mentions something bad about the GTO. Since you are so good quoting my posts, I'm sure you can find my post where I said that I actually liked the car.

So what am I being subjective about? Not liking a car's name? Then I'm guilty. Keep on comparing a GTO to a new Vette, well at least to the end of this model year.

PS I don't close threads due to a disagreement but I will gladly respond to obvious errors (GTO can out run a C6 Vette). If you don't like "gramps" opinion then take it as an opinion. Generally, I grew up with a different GTO, one that did change the auto industry. One actually built in NA (Not that the Aussies can't build great cars). IMO, the current GTO is still a Monaro and shouldn't be called a GTO.

Dave, I guess we can always just agree to disagree. You are right about not closing the thread due to a disagreement....that was a worthless statement by me.

I can also agree that the public would likely of recieved the GTO better if it was called something else like the Catalina or even the Tempest or something else.

Oh, and my intentions were to never say that the GTO can outrun a C6 Vette. I do understand physics....lighter more aerodynamic vehicle with same powertrain is going to perform better. I just believe that the GTO is close enough in acceleration/performance to give a C6 a good run and even take the win if driver skill is involved. No drivers involved, of course the C6 wins everytime in every category (except for seating 4 :) )

I understand your negative feelings towards the Non-NA GTO as well. I've served all over the world with the Marines, and I love this country and its native made products and would happily purchase an American made modern GTO over a Non-NA made GTO anyday. I feel the same about the Canadian made F-bodies. I would own one, but would feel better if it was made at an American plant, regardless of where the profit goes and which country it benefits.

I still think the GTO is the perfect all around Coupe though! :)

Anyways, what do you say we just get along. :) :grouphug:

Todd

[04TBEXT]

:confused: Aw come on guys....as an old-timer, I just spent a few hours on & off compiling data to defend the "Original GTO". And now you guys wanna' make "kissy-face"???
:crazy: If we're gonna stop with the Pontiac GTO, then whadda' ya' guys think about the original Chrysler 300 letter series vs. the new Chrysler 300?? The original Hemi vs. the new Hemi??
:yes: All jokes aside, their isn't a better bunch of people I'd rather debate with than the people on Trailvoy...nuf said.

[Dave]

Todd,
I understand some of your points. Chances are the GTO would have sold better if it was built in the US or Canada (nothing against our Aussie friends). I'm about to retire from the USAF after 20 years. I have owned foreign cars over the years (2 VW Passats were the best for reliability). I just prefer to buy an North American-made car these days. A different name probably would have helped also.

The Vette's friend is its weight per HP ratio. A C6 driver would have to be bad to lose to a V or GTO. My V was a little heavier than the GTO but benefited from shorter gears (3.73s) but the rear end is pitiful on that car anyways.

GTOs will suffer the same problem that most GM sports cars have/will suffer from. They won't let it beat the Vette. At least this isn't the early 80s though where 1/3rd the HP was the norm.

I may buy the next GTO if it is built on this side of the big pond, otherwise I think the Chevy might have another Vette sale. Now if they ever built the Vette overseas, good-bye GM.

Stay safe! I hope they don't send you over to the sandbox too often.

Dave

[traumadog]

FWIW - I do know one thing we can agree upon: this "imported" GTO sure looks a whole lot better than the last "imported" Pontiac LeMans (1989-1994, Daewoo-built Opel)

[06BBBSS]

Actually, I hear that it'd be a base for what they were gonna call the Pontiac G8 (Bonneville) instead.

Actually the Grand Prix will be the G8, IF they decide to make it RWD. IF FWD, unsure if they will keep GP or switch to G8. There are FWD and RWD (based off the new aussie commodore) Impala SSs running around and I believe GM is now deciding which way to go. Whichever way the Impala goes, so will the G8/Grand Prix I would imagine.

The Current GTO was NEVER meant to go past a 3 year run if 15-18k cars a year. After that it was to be made off the Zeta platform here in America but when GM got into financial trouble and cancelled/delayed all new cars and threw their money into the GMT900s (tahoe etc) that pushed the new GTO back a few years to 08 or 09 with the camaro and is why there is no 07 GTO. The US $ has sunk against every other currency since 02/03 when the original plans for the 04 GTO were made which is why it doesnt make sense to quickly redesign the current commodor/monaro now for 1 or 2 years. It isnt worth it. And its going out of production down under anyway so why bother.

GM brought the 04 GTO over in quantity LATE, it was Early 04 before they got over here in enough quantity to show up on lots and who wants a 350hp RWD car in wintertime. It didnt help that dealers tried to charge $5,000-10,000 over sticker for it. That tanked sales, which generated negative press which fed on itself. All the press before the car got here in quantities praised it for being a very good car. After sales were slow, it was all nice car but.....and went downhill from there. It also didnt help 04 sales that GM didnt make it any secret in summer 04 that the 05 would have a scooped hood, 400hp LS2 and split exhaust. something everyone wanted, which forced GM to fire sale the 04s which generated negative press and opinions for the 05 and beyond. WIth the press gushing over the retro Mustang, and it being cheaper (in price as well as interior quality) the GTO never had much of a chance.

Ive owned a 94 and 98 Trans Am and have an 04 GTO now, the GTO is lightyears ahead in quality/fit/finish over the TA on the Inside. It is much more comfortable, more roomy, and Way more comfortable for driving and highway cruising than either of my F-bodies were. Its as fast stock, or nearly as fast but not as easy to drive the 1/4 fast like the Fbody was. The independant rear(wheel hop), poor shifter and small tires make it a PITA to launch hard. I love the F-bodies, they weigh less have better tires and the live axle is better at the track, but IMO if you care about more than going fast in the 1/4, the GTO is a much nicer car to drive and I can live with it a lot easier (with kids now) than the older F-bodies.

My nephew has an 05 LS6 CTS-V. Much better shifter, brakes, suspension and better motor than my LS1. Car looks fantastic but I like the interior of my GTO better. I just wish I had a few more creature comforts.

The GTO isnt without faults but its still a good car for the money.

[pervisanathema]

Hey mate, why don't you try and read some GM insider. The mother lovin' GTO was slotted to only be sold in the 2004-2006 model years. GM knew this even before the 04 GTO was for sale! The 04-06 GTO was more or less a feeler car for the future.

Actually, if you would have taken the time to read my previous post, you would have noticed that I already said that.

Todd

If the GTO exceeded expectations and sales numbers were steadily increasing, it would not be going out of production. Do you honestly think a company that is the financial situation that GM is in would kill off a profitable and high selling vehicle?

[traumadog]

If the GTO exceeded expectations and sales numbers were steadily increasing, it would not be going out of production. Do you honestly think a company that is the financial situation that GM is in would kill off a profitable and high selling vehicle?

That depends - if the vehicle no longer meets Federal (airbag) regulations and would cost too much to update, then yes - GM would. Like I said, the Monaro off of which it was built is already out of production, pending the new generation - so GM keeping this-generation GTO alive (even if it was successful) was highly unlikely.

[06BBBSS]

If the GTO exceeded expectations and sales numbers were steadily increasing, it would not be going out of production. Do you honestly think a company that is the financial situation that GM is in would kill off a profitable and high selling vehicle?

20-30,000 cars is not a lot of cars in the big picture, no matter what they make off it. the 94-96 Impala SS had increasing sales numbers and was DIRT CHEAP for chevy to produce but they killed it anyway in favor of higher profit trucks.

'94 Impala SS = 6,303
'95 Impala SS = 18,649
'96 Impala SS = 26,000 +

The new GTO is delayed 2 years instead of coming out in 07 on the new platform once again because of The GMT900 redesign being top priority.

The only other alternative is to spend more money on new airbags and certifications for the old GTO, and build it in aussie land next to the new 07 Holden RWD sedan and coupe which are NOT built on the same platform. they dont have the money.

Because of the truck decision, the GTO was going to lose a year or two regardless if it sold 20k a year or not. Its also probably why the Camaro wont be out until 08-09. All the money went to the new Tahoe/suburban etc.

everything in car land got pushed back because of the trucks.

[Atlas]

That is the point I was trying to make... If they had sold enough of them, then they would have found a way to keep selling them...

[Dave]

Development costs can be extremely high. A good point was made about the air bags. It wouldn't be economical for GM to do a big redesign to fit in the new air bags on a limited production model. The current GTO was a decent car but it did have some flaws that affected its sales (high price compared to Mustang, very small trunk, and questionable looks). Those prevented the GTO from being a top seller. Even if it sold all 54,000 GTOs, GM would still lose money due to the air bag remodel or they would have to raise the MSRP to cover the costs. In the end they would have to produce a car that is losing them money.

[ghoster]

Development costs can be extremely high. A good point was made about the air bags. It wouldn't be economical for GM to do a big redesign to fit in the new air bags on a limited production model. The current GTO was a decent car but it did have some flaws that affected its sales (high price compared to Mustang, very small trunk, and questionable looks). Those prevented the GTO from being a top seller. Even if it sold all 54,000 GTOs, GM would still lose money due to the air bag remodel or they would have to raise the MSRP to cover the costs. In the end they would have to produce a car that is losing them money.

I hate economics.:mad:

[traumadog]

Development costs can be extremely high. A good point was made about the air bags. It wouldn't be economical for GM to do a big redesign to fit in the new air bags on a limited production model. The current GTO was a decent car but it did have some flaws that affected its sales (high price compared to Mustang, very small trunk, and questionable looks). Those prevented the GTO from being a top seller. Even if it sold all 54,000 GTOs, GM would still lose money due to the air bag remodel or they would have to raise the MSRP to cover the costs. In the end they would have to produce a car that is losing them money.

My point exactly. There are some that are saying that GM only has about 30 day's worth of cash-on-hand for operations. With that little margin, there was no way that GM would invest in ongoing GTO production unless they were selling literally 80-90K/year, which was impossible because of manufacturing limitations from the get-go.

Even now, GM is having trouble meeting production levels of the current hits (hit?) it does have (e.g. Solstice).

[Mr. Furley]

The current GTO was going to have trouble meeting the new airbag standards.

The GTO was never built to be able to meet them. The run was planned.

Besides a 7 cubic foot trunk wasn't that appealing, even for a coupe.

If you need more space, take another vehicle. Mine works fine on vacation for the wife and I.

blank

I didn't see too many GTO's out and about anyways, maybe less than a dozen since they've been out.

I'm so glad for this fact. I see 687678687687 mustangs a day.

GTO's are nice but I think the Camaro will be better:crazy:

Why? Because its going to be retro trendy like the 2009 GTO. I don't think the interior will be as good as the Aussies used.

I've heard they handle like a boat, nevermind that they look like a cavalier on steroids. yechh if it wasn't for the ls1 and ls2 engines i don't know how they'd manage to sell a single one

Start doing and stop listening. Looks are to each their own.

The GTO was kind of screwed by GM though from the start. GM would never let it be as fast as a CTS V.

I disagree. The 05-06 have been faster.

There was a brief article in the May 2006 Road & Track concerning the demise of the GTO. GM blames it on "a stronger Aussie dollar and new airbag rules." As a former Firebird owner, I'm excited about the prospect of Pontiac rebadging the Camaro (if in fact they do build it) and releasing it as a Firebird :D

Wrong, its a Camaro and GTO for 2009.

I think it wasn't advertised enough. Didn't hear anything about it ever.

What GM should have done. :)

http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66432

http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66433

[Dave]

7 cubic feet of trunk space is very small for a car that really isn't that special. Now I can live with that size if it is a Vette, Porshe, Viper, etc.

GM would have found a way to keep building the GTO if they were great sellers. 18,000 units doesn't leave much room for a profit though after you factor in engineering costs.

Actually, the CTS V was quicker than the GTO in any year. They both weigh the same with the same HP but the CTS V had shorter gears which means quicker launches. The CTS V also had a lower MPG rating though due to the shorter gears. I owned a CTS V so I knew a few things about that car. Given drivers with the same skill in stock cars, the CTS V will win. Unless the GTO had some special trait that could make up for the taller gears. The V still lives in 2007 also so they must be doing something right with VERY limited production (3000 units).

What I really meant to say is they will never let another GM car be faster than a Vette given same driver's skills, stock cars, etc.

[traumadog]

Dave,

I always give credit to the beancounters at GM for all the platform kills they are able to do. The Impala SS (last model, edning in '96) is a perfect example. GM started selling alot more of them over it's short lifespan, with its tooling well paid-off and a large fleet-sales program and they still killed it.

There was no way that GM would have kept the GTO past its three-year run without selling tons more than it had capacity for.

And besides, though I like my car, I'd say that if GM wants to survive, it needs to keep its focus on cars that sell in the hundreds-of-thousands range, rather than multiple small-volume cars. Mind you, the Camry alone is well over a 400K units/year pace. So unless you can find a specialty car selling in that volume, then I'd say nothing would have kept it alive.

[Dave]

I agree. Sometimes unique isn't always better. It usually adds to development and repair costs. While the GTO/CTS V share most of their mechanical parts, their body parts are not shared with other GM products. At least the V has the regular CTS to some extent. Not a big deal though unless you are in an accident or parts start falling off (like my V did).

[DrkPhx]

I test drove 4 different 6-speed 06 GTO's before I bought my TB SS and loved them. The front seats are great, as is the whole interior. My biggest complaints were the tiny trunk and the terrible access to the rear seats. But for the price, it's a killer car.