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Hard start first thing

26K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  DonWs05 
#1 ·
Sorry if this is an old question but the last two mornings my '05 TB with only 11,400 miles has not started on the first try. The sequence has been this:

Yesterday: Turn key to start, engine cranked for 3 maybe 4 secs, did not start - let up on key. Immediately try again, cranks for 2 - 3 secs and fires, runs normal, no missing or anything. Starts normally the rest of the day.

"Normally" means it starts in a 1+ seconds, virtually immediately.

Today: Remembering yesterday, I decide to hold key if it doesn't start and see what happens. So turn key to start, engine cranks for maybe 4 -5 secs, no start. Release key and immediately try again, Engine cranks for 2 - 3 secs and fires, runs fine. Drive to coffee shop, come out half hour later starts just fine.

I'm new to owning a TB but it's almost as if the fuel system has lost its prime.

Question: Does the fuel pump run with key on? If so for how long and should I be able to hear it?

What else might be going on?

TIA
 
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#2 ·
I think the newer TB are like the Impalas...
you turn the key, crank- the computer gets the signal- and the COMPUTER cranks the engine till it starts....
I think I read TB where doing this now...

next time you can try this in the morning when its been sitting overnight
put key in, turn the key (DO NOT CRANK), then turn off. turn key again, DO NOT CRANK, turn off, turn key again, wait about 2 seconds, and then crank.... does the engine start in the 1 seconds interval?

when you put the key in, and turn, the fuel pump runs for about 3 seconds- it presurizes the lines...
in case you have a leak... turning the key several times will pressurize the lines..
its possible theres no pressure and it wont turn on till gas gets to the engine....

on the TB the pump is quiet... open the door and turn the key- you should hear a faint hum...
you wont hear it if its noisy around you...
 
#5 ·
OK, this morning I cycled the key from off and on three times, waiting about 3-4 secs with key on each time. I could hear a couple of things run and then go off each time. On the 4th try I went directly to "start" and it started just fine.

So what's going on.

I know one of the service guys at the dealer so will check with him but anything you can add is appreciated.

Thanks,
 
#7 ·
Yup, I agree. I think my problem is going to be convincing the dealer. That's where knowing one of the service guys will help. I hope.:rolleyes:

I'm gonna try a "normal" start tomorrow morning and see if the problem repeats then start callin'.

Thanks,
 
#8 ·
alot like my old 67 nova.
let it sit for some time (week) and when you try to restart- its a hassle...
gotta crank it for some time.. while it SUCKS gas from the tank.
sometimes I just pour a little gas in the carb- it starts right up, runs for a few seconds at high RPM... then quits...
upon restart- it cranks a few times and then vroooommmmm,
obviously the previous revving helped bring up some gas...

in your TB case, it is losing pressure somewhere. But in this case. the pump PUSHES gas- (pressurizes it in the lines).
old car pumps SUCKED the gas thru the lines... thats why in hot weather many cars ended up with Vapor lock...
Vapor lock is nonexistant nowadays.
 
#14 ·
Well, Yesterday when I turned the key directly to start (IE, no waiting at the "on" position to prime things) nothing happened, meaning it did not crank. Yes, I've seen other posts about that being the switch. Turned off, back to start, fired right up. So before I call the dealer and make a fool of myself I'm gonna start a daily log for the next week or so. Will keep you advised as things transpire.

Thanks,
 
#15 ·
Well today I go out and turn the key directly from "off" to "start." Nothing, didn't crank at all. Waited for a few secs with key in start, still nothing. Key off then back to start. Nothing for a moment then it cranked but no start. Third time's a charm. It cranked immediately, took maybe a moment longer than normal and fired. Now I'm beginning to suspect the switch as I've seen other posts with sw trouble. Whatever "it" is it seems to be getting worse. The saga continues...
 
#16 ·
Quick update. The problem keeps repeating intermittently. Have an apt with the dealer tomorrow. Mentioned that I had researched the issue a bit (thanks to this site) and figured it was the ign sw and he agreed. We'll see how it goes.
 
#17 ·
At the dealer. No codes (which I guess there would be if it was the ign sw). It DID fail for them though, thankfully. Apparently there is a bulletin for a bad solder joint in the starter so they're changing the starter.

If someone has that bulletin I'd like to see it. Might be a good one to post. Otherwise I'll get it from my friend who works there and see if I can post it.
 
#20 ·
Post 1 was accurate as far as it went. Things kinda went downhill from there. They are changing the starter, depending on part availability I'll have it either tomorrow or Thurs. Will keep you advised. (One of my pet peeves when folks post their prob and never the solution.)

Thanks for the post on the starter issue.
 
#19 ·
Bulletin:
Subject: Intermittent No Crank No Start Or Delayed Crank - keywords battery crank ground no nocrank nostart solder solenoid start starter #PIT4557 - (12/27/2007)

Models: 2005-2006 Buick Rainier
2005-2006 Chevrolet Trailblazer Models
2005-2006 GMC Envoy Models
2005-2006 Saab 97x


The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may comment of a no crank no start or delayed crank concern. This concern may be intermittent and difficult to duplicate. Vehicle will store no DTCs and display no indicators for any fault or failure. Battery will be fully charged and show no evidence of being weak. This concern may be caused by a poor ground solder joint at the starter solenoid. This is the connection between the starter motor and the solenoid.
Recommendation/Instructions:

Using a test light, check for power on circuit 5 at the starter motor solenoid when the concern is current. This is the purple wire from starter relay to the starter solenoid. Refer to SI document 1615124 as needed. If power is present at the starter solenoid, suspect a poor ground solder joint at the starter solenoid. Replace the starter motor with current SPO parts.

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
 
#23 ·
not unheard of the factory battery to go out early.
Especially in the colder climates.
Some have had the battery fail early.
Some report 2 yrs. but the average seems to be 3-4 yrs on the factory unit.
I replaced mine at about 3.5 yrs almost 4- not because it was failing.... but because the average of the people on here were reporting less than 4 yrs.
I had some long trips INTO Mexico coming up at the time and for peace of mind replaced it.
 
#24 ·
yep mine lasted till last year so 04 1/2 til 06 .. 2 years seems the avg. here :)


have you tried replacing your battery?
try a jump start.
the truck is cranking , and cranking for extended periods as it wont start ,, battery is not an issue here, lets K.I.S.S. here.

bad battery would not allow the TB to crank at all as i found out last year and again this morning as the battery i bought last year went bad again,, free 3 year replacement , but that dosnt stop the loss of income from missing work till the parts store opens.

as far as the no-start i would suspect the pressure loss coming from the lowest part ,, the pump, prosphoto is again right on with the possibilities. however i feel if it were a leaking injector then the start would be ,,, No-start>>>> hard start>> nasty gas smell..
leaking FP regulator would produce low power and if it were the diaphram that failed , then a fuel soaked block would produce the gas smell that would set off alarms to the owner. now i could be way off , just my feelings on this situation.
i would suspect this is an internal leak somewhere in the fuel circuit in the tank, so fuel pump itself , or the anti-prime loss valve thats in the pump, these vehicles should hold a few pounds of pressure for an indefinite amount of time, or there would not be a procedure to relive the pressure hehe.
all great suggestions, i just thought i would toss in my 2 coppers.
Josh
 
#26 ·
OK, picked it up this evening. They replaced the starter. Starts fine, cranks faster, and yes I can tell the difference. They also updated the computer, performing a "SPS" update.

Interesting comments on bat life, will keep that in mind as time marches on. My earlier comments about fuel pumps, pressure regulators and leaky injs were based entirely on my experience with the Syclone which is now 17 years old. Remember the TB, to me, is barely over a month old. I'm still learning... :)

Thanks to all for their comments.
 
#27 ·
There have been some delco battery problems of late according to my saturn dealer. Our 04 Rainier still has its original though. Industry wide a decent lead acid battery lasts 3 to 4 years, some as long as 7 years. And contrary to popular belief you still can pry off the caps on the top of the battery and add some distilled water to keep it topped off. Its a good idea at the end of summer to check the level, it should be a the bottom of the plastic tubes.
 
#28 ·
And contrary to popular belief you still can pry off the caps on the top of the battery and add some distilled water to keep it topped off. Its a good idea at the end of summer to check the level, it should be a the bottom of the plastic tubes.
That would be true, been doin' it for years. Every 6 mos min. Just had an idea, do it when you change your clocks. Eh? Like replacing your smoke alarm bats.

Rule of thumb: Car batteries last about a week longer than their warranty.
 
#29 ·
Most part store batterys have 1-3 year free replacement warranties, but a little known fact is the most have a 6-7 year prorated warranty. Sorry to hijack with all the battery info.

Its sad that they replace the whole starter, what ever happened to pulling out the $15 solder gun and fixing the ground strap rather than a new $200 part?? Atleast you got a new one, If I was doing it myself I'd be soldering away.
 
#30 ·
Most part store batterys have 1-3 year free replacement warranties, but a little known fact is the most have a 6-7 year prorated warranty. Sorry to hijack with all the battery info.

X2 on all that, no apology necessary.

Its sad that they replace the whole starter, what ever happened to pulling out the $15 solder gun and fixing the ground strap rather than a new $200 part?? Atleast you got a new one, If I was doing it myself I'd be soldering away.
Apparently the bad solder joint is internal to the starter solenoid. If, big if, the solenoid is a sealed unit it could be fun. Dealer replaced the entire starter no charge, can't complain.
 
#31 ·
Well I really thought this thread was dead and buried but no such luck. TB is not fixed. Same problem, doesn't start every time, but now with some added twists. Yesterday on the way home from work the horn didn't work. Get home check fuse, fuse OK, horn works. Guess I'm dreaming. Today begins its no start problem again and now the DIC says to check the brake system.

Hopefully that means it has thrown some codes and the dealer can find something. Based solely upon what reading I've done here I'm back to thinking it's the ign sw. We'll see what the dealer has to say on Monday.
 
#33 ·
Just got a call from the service manager and they've decided that its the aftermarket alarm. The only thing that it really did other than the usual was remote start. I have little need for that so they are completely removing that alarm system and putting the TB back to stock and giving me two stock key fobs. All at no charge. FYI it was a Code Alarm system and I agreed with them that it prolly was not installed correctly based on the fact that the sense wire for drivers-door-open wasn't even connected, which I found when I was trouble shooting why it wouldn't go into program mode shortly after I bought it. Whew!
 
#34 ·
Got the TB back today. They replaced the ign sw and removed the aftermarket alarm, giving me two new factory remotes as I mentioned above. Tell ya what there are some good dealers out there. Hopefully we can finally bury this thread. I will prolly post one more time just to verify the fix or, god forbid, continue it.
 
#35 ·
OK, now this is going to sound a little crazy, but I have been going through the exact same problem that you are going through with your TB for the past three years. It all started off with one time where it wouldn't start at all, no click, no nothing, full power in vehicle all accessories worked 13.5 volts, it was as if the ignition stopped working. It just so happened when I switched seat with my mom in the vehicle I pulled the tilt steering down and tried it and the vehicle fired up like it was nothing. Took it to the stealership and they had said the the tilt had pinched a wire for the ignition and replaced the ignition swtich under warrenty, and I though to myself Bonus! But that is only the beginning of the problem, ever since I have had a delayed crank, times where I would let it turn over a couple of times, stop then try it again and it fired right up. So I thought to myself there must be a fuel issue of some sort. So I took it to the stealership again and they "claimed" they looked over everything check the fuel pump, the regulator, and blamed it on a fuel filter. So the following day I replaced the fuel filter myself, and within the same day the problem still persisted. So I took it back again, and they changed there opinion to it being the aftermarket remote starter we had on the vehicle. So we had the compant that installed the remote starter system to come to the dealership and remove the system, and run the vehicle without it for a couple of weeks. Well within a day of having the starter system removed the vehicle still had the delayed starting issue. We told the dealership and they basically turned around and said well the delayed starting hasn't happened to us at all so there isn'y anything wrong. And well ever since they still will not do anything and still say there is nothing wrong, we have showed them and the stealership said it was because it was cold that day that it did that?? WTF.
 
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